Do Men Even Notice Women Anymore?

Filed Under Men Attracting Women, Pickup, Women Attracting Men


 
Not me, it was the guy behind me...I swear.

[Please Read: This has obviously become an incendiary post, to the point of going viral. If you are a #MGTOW and wish to take me to task for having a happy, fulfilling relationship with a wonderful woman, I've already responded to similar comments more than enough times below. Going forward, I'll only be approving well-articulated comments that add something new to the conversation. Please read this other post before commenting to gain clarity on my gender-neutral position on human behavior.]

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A while back I was on a coaching call with a woman who happens to be smart, successful and beautiful. We were actively discussing creative ways she might encourage the kind of man she deserves to introduce himself, start a conversation and sweep her off of her feet.

Out of the blue, she posed one of the most poignant questions I’d been asked in quite some time:

“Scot, do men even LOOK at women anymore? I mean, do they even NOTICE us out there?”

My knee-jerk response, had I not stopped to ponder the issue, may have been something to the effect of, “Well, of course. Men have been making it a point to stop and admire women they happen to see when they’re out and about since the dawn of recorded time. And probably before that as well.”

But instead I paused. The question wasn’t a mere throwaway…some miscellaneous rant from a woman who couldn’t understand why she couldn’t even catch a man looking, let alone get him to approach her.

So we talked about it some. And since I was on a road trip and passing through South Carolina, Georgia and Florida, I decided to do somewhat of a field study.

 
X-Ray Vision Into A Woman's Deepest Fantasies

 

Myrtle Beach. Savannah. Daytona Beach. South Beach Miami. All places where there’s no shortage of attractive women wandering the sidewalks in sundresses or catching rays on the beach in bikinis. At each stop I made it a point to stop and observe what happened whenever men and women were in close proximity to each other.

Time and again what I observed was…nothing. NOTHING happened. Ever. Not even one time out of maybe two hundred.

Granted, knowing how “approach anxiety” has a death grip on most mortal men, it’s not even like I was expecting to witness guys stopping bikini-clad hotties and getting their numbers. The odds of seeing a jaguar in the wild in Florida are probably greater than that.

But these guys were apparently oblivious that there were sexy women within the scope of their radar. They weren’t even bothering to look at them…at all.

Now, I know what you might be thinking, but give me some credit here. I completely get the importance of subtlety. Anyone who’s smoother than, say, Steve Urkel knows the value of waiting until about four or five seconds after you pass a woman on the street to take a look back at her.

And yes, most of us as guys know that it’s better when food shopping to perpetrate like you forgot something in the same aisle that hottie is on, just so you can justify backtracking to verify how sexy she really is.

At least in principle we understand all that stuff. But by God, these guys were seriously NOT LOOKING at women. EVER. AT ALL.

Time after time dudes were strolling by fantastically hot women with virtually nothing on, apparently without even having noticed.

To be sure, in case you’re wondering the women weren’t stealing a glimpse of a guy here and there either.

These people weren’t just not noticing each other, they weren’t even trying. They weren’t even tuned in to the “hottie radar” frequency.

I was, and remain, astonished by what I saw repeat itself over and over again. I mean, when I was in college and living at the beach during the summer, I’m fairly sure my friends and I didn’t miss ANY of the girls who came within 200 yards of us.

Back at school, if a girl dared wear red underwear beneath white pants our entire dormitory new about it by lunchtime.

Hell, I remember guys in pickup trucks hanging out of windows and hollering at my MOM when I was about four or five years old.

Historically speaking, noticing women hasn’t only been a treasured pastime for men everywhere, it’s been a way of life.

So what gives nowadays? Sure, the stereotypical idea of construction workers wolf whistling at women seems preposterously rude in today’s world (although I’m sure it still happens…somewhere). We’ve all watched the early seasons of Mad Men and been appalled. So nobody is suggesting we revert to real, genuine sexual harassment.

But not even NOTICING women at all? What’s the world coming to? How are we to ever continue the cycle of procreation to perpetuate the human race?

In my completely random opinion—which is pure conjecture, mind you—I can think of at least three factors that may be conspiring here.

 

1) Fear Of Seeming Predatory

The subtle (or at times blatant) message presented to men in the 21st century is that any display of sexual interest in a woman is considered “sexual harassment”. We’ve all been to a corporate seminar that warned us as such. The result is that we as men have been successfully conditioned to leave women the hell alone. In other words, it’s not just “don’t touch”, it’s “don’t even LOOK”.

The sobering thought that comes to mind here is that this factor alone is moving our culture from an epidemic fear of approaching women to an equally pandemic state of being afraid to even LOOK at them.

Consider this. When was the first time you remember encountering the adjective “rapey” to describe certain male behavior? For me it was just a couple of years ago.

 

2) The Ubiquity Of Porn

This one is about as simple to throw on the table as it gets. Given the sheer abundance of videos and images of whatever kind of woman you’d like buck naked and having sex online—and the on-demand availability of it, for free—have we as guys really just become immune to anything less?

Perhaps the more interesting question is this: Have we actually gotten to the point where an image on our computer screen is a more potent stimulus than a real, live woman? That is, assuming the latter has clothes on and isn’t performing a sexual act, of course.

 

3) Insulation From Real People In General

For years it has been theorized that the advent of the Walkman back in the early ‘80s heralded the beginning of the end for common, face-to-face social interaction. And indeed, as people tuned in to their headphones they tuned out all else around them, including other humans.

So there’s that, which is clearly significant.

But what about social media? Nowadays people are rapidly feeling less compelled to actually interact with people in person. We type at each other on Facebook and Twitter, look at the pictures and watch the videos. That’s the new definition of “social”.

Let me be the first to raise my hand and admit that I most certainly pick up the phone less often and attend fewer social gatherings these days. And yes, I can make a clear, conscious connection between that and the fact that I’ve already seen what all of those people are up to on Facebook this week.

Add it all up and it could very well be that we’re all being brainwashed into flat-out ignoring people in real life.

 

So what do you think? I made sure to make this a blog post instead of a regular newsletter because I really, seriously would love to hear your opinion. And I want to hear from both men and women on this.

Do you agree that we don’t even notice each other anymore? Or is it that we’re simply a lot more subtle about it, whether that be due to sophistication or plain old fear?

Or have I been reading my data all wrong? Do you see men admiring women all the time where you live?

 

Be Good,

Scot McKay

P.S. This may shock you, given what you’ve just read, but did you know that women are probably noticing YOU all the time? They’re even sending you signals that are clear as a bell. Here are ten phrases that you should be listening for that are dead giveaways.

P.S.S. If you’re one of the guys reading this post who is extremely bitter toward women and would genuinely like to transform your mindset, you’ll love Episode 107 of The Mountain Top Podcast.

 
X-Ray Vision Into A Woman's Deepest Fantasies

 








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Comments

735 Responses to “Do Men Even Notice Women Anymore?”

  1. Joe

    Hey Scot!

    Good post. At first, my gut reaction was “of course, I look at beautiful women everyday”. But, after I thought about it, I realized that the “preditory” or creepy factor does in fact inhibit me and probably several other guys in this regard. I don’t think that it comes down to not looking at all, I think we don’t want to get CAUGHT looking. Afterall, the guy that stares a little too long is creepy. So, its probably more of an issue of sublety than not noticing the fairer sex at all.

    Reply

    • That’s very possible. Perhaps we as guys have gotten as slick at this as women have always been.

      Reply

      • Lana

        I think men no longer view women as having any value, not to be mean but alot of guys view women as skanks with alot of milage and baggage. At one tome in the past women were valued but today she is most likely a tramp.

        Reply

        • Wowza. And “Lana” would be a woman’s name, no less, right?

          Pretty sobering words. Really sorry you feel that way.

          Reply

          • Brenda

            Wow so many opinions I only read just the first few..I think Lana is right. Men have no respect for women.It’s easier just to have sex with no one to answer to. There is no such thing as “know your role or old school dating” Technology has made us insensitive and the lack of actually talking on the phone or in person makes it easier to have no feelings. The fear of being let down is so great that we limit our expectations and choose not to have any. This way we can’t really be hurt. I can see the various opinions and I guess it all comes down to your own personal experiences but every person has a reason for why they feel the way they do, even if they were mistaken. Most women (that I know) want to take care of our man if we could find one that wants to take care of us also. I know there are a lot of free loading gold diggers but they’re usually obvious I think and there’s a lot of players out there too. We just have to remember not to judge the gender even if its the only thing we’ve seen. It’s harder to date now than it was 15 years ago. I think if you’re married, you should do what you can to make it work. Single life in this age is no good. You better be happy with yourself or you might be lonely for a while.

        • Me

          I’m with you Lana and Brenda!

          One reason most gloss over is simply this.

          Sl*ts are freaking everywhere!! It is LITTLE WONDER boys are no longer turned on. It is shoved in their faces and rammed down their throats by attention seeking wh*res every single day of their lives.

          That’s why!

          The girls just keep going to further and further extremes until it no longer works. As discussed in this article.

          I’m actually turned off women completely because of it. It’s not sexy at all. I wish girls would realize this.

          Congratulations Girls! You collectively over stimulated young men in your selfish quests to sexually validate yourselves.

          That’s WHY!
          Not that you ever cared what Men want anyway…

          You dug your grave girls. Now lay in it!

          MGTOW
          Men Going Their Own Way.

          Reply

          • Vic

            It’s hard to believe men no longer look at a field of beautiful land mines and don’t admire them with appreciation. It’s so weird.

            Here’s to hoping women never figure this out (which, they won’t) and millions of men are spared the legal shredder of being involved with a beautiful land mine…I mean woman…

          • Roberto

            In order to get respect you need to earn respect. You don’t earn respect just by being of a particular gender.

          • 100% agreed. And you surely don’t earn it by disrespecting and mitrusting the other one, either.

          • Jim Lawrence

            I have to admit, I no longer pay much attention to women. I’m 28, the victim of one cheating wife and not really in the market for any type of personal relationship. When I really need sex, I simply purchase it as I would any other item. Since any sort of personal activity in an office place leaves a man open for a civil suit or dismissal, it is just preferable for me to live my life alone, buy sex when I require it and just leave women to their own devices.

            Jim

        • pte00

          To me I see all women as materialic oner way or another and that’s why I don’t approach women are highly materlistic. And money humgry and they have these fairy godmother standards.

          Reply

        • JustAnotherGuy

          Lana has a point because that’s exactly my mentality some of the time. I have seen more women around me jump from guy to guy to guy with good intentions of finding mister right, but unfortunately, this left me with a pretty bad impression of how easy and often certain women change out sexual partners. I really have to work at not seeing some women as “pincushions”. And I’m not saying that to be mean either. It’s to demonstrate that Lana has a point, but that point for me is based on experience. One of the first things I want to know is how many guys has a woman had sex with, of any kind. I need to get to know a girl first before that stigma goes away. See her personality, habbits, and learn about her life choices.

          With that said, I also see men doing the same thing. Jumping around trying to rack up their scores. At least the guys attractive enough to do so.

          Reply

        • Raul

          Lana your problem could be easily solved if you just do one simple thing. Wear a T-Shirt that says I’m not a feminist. That’s it.

          You will get approach a lot more, and men won’t think you have a lot of milage, are a gold-digger, or an entiteld women who will make false acusations against them.

          They might not belive you are not a feminist, but at least they will give you some slack at the begining.

          If you also happened to be a catholic girl, and aslo young and pretty, congratulations, that will make you marriage material for most men.

          Or even wearing a T-Shirt supporting Trump or Jesus or the Catholic Church could also help.

          Men need to know you are not a bitch before they approach you. Otherwise they won’t and even if they do, they will not respect you.

          Hope that helps a little.

          Reply

          • I believe a warm smile does the trick for most women.

          • Roberto

            Raul,
            You have a good figurative idea. The problem is the loud mouthed feminist leftists shout down the women who’s opinions differ from theirs. They remain silent when the loudmouths speak out, preferring to stand in the corner because they loathe confrontation. This silence is interpreted by the radical feminists as approval of their misandrist rantings. This reluctance to speak out convinces many men to believe that the majority of women are all in the Anti-Male camp.

          • BINGO.

            As evidence, look how Donald Trump got elected completely under the media radar. Negative haters always get the media attention.

        • James Guthrie

          Lana,

          Women were just as fucked up in the head when I was 14 in 1968. Now they can be overt about it, and do not have to be so sneaky. you are defending people (being nice to call them people) acting like retarded 8 year olds for life.

          Reply

    • The Objective Historian

      Great post.

      There was a pretty good movie considering the difficult theme called Don Jon with Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Scarlett Johansson last year that took up these themes to an extent.

      I think it’s also a matter of success history. If you have approached women on the sidewalk often and it’s been only polite brief conversation or contempt, but in any case rejection, then it’s more than just approach anxiety, but practicality.

      Women do seem to do more to encourage a man to start a conversation these days because of what your write here. Escalation of a sort.

      Interesting.

      TOH

      Reply

    • Aundray

      As a man I see how this is playing out.You look at TV it’s geared towards women and men are viewed as the jerks.Women in this country have so many rights and men get thrown to the wolves be it divorce or child custody.I think it’s Great that women are in the work force but women failed to see that putting carrer first meant men aren’t waiting for them and I think men are just plain tired of being blamed for everything in a relationship even when it’s not thier fault.Women in America it seems to me some women not all are conditioned to screw men over at all cost.And we men aren’t stupid we see it coming and want no part of getting taken to the cleaners.

      Reply

  2. Chris

    Interesting topic, Scot.

    I live in South Beach and, as you pointed out, there is no shortage of eye candy here.

    All of us – at one time or another – have been guilty of face-in-smartphone disease and have likely missed out on meeting or checking out motos.

    I’m an extrovert, so I’m likely to smile or greet people when I see them. In fact, shy people might try this with everybody whether or not there is any attraction.

    Before long, you become comfortable greeting others that you approach the hotties the same way you’d approach anyone else. You never know where that can lead.

    Reply

    • Great point. Once you develop “unconscious competence” when interacting with women in general, talking to hotties becomes just as automatic.

      Reply

      • Jack Roberts

        The thing is that people look at there phones or like me read a book ( which I do on the train as I don’t want contact), I do this a I know it will help me be more productive and not be creepy guy or like a crazy woman shout at me.

        Also people talk via various mediums (dating) apps etc.

        Only approach in a bar or settings that are set-out like that. You come to learn to be content in being single.

        The previous generation had more sex, went out more, slimmer and had better career prospects so you can factor in that to, less guys are fully employed and women are looking for more when men in generally have less than pre-generation.

        Reply

  3. Steve

    It’s odd you should have this blog entry at this time. I believe there is a movement among women right now to document the kind of every day subtle annoyances from men. It may have a hashtag – can’t recall.

    Granted, exchanging glances shouldn’t be obnoxious, and granted some men are impolite or obnoxious, but I think this movement drives another nail into the coffin of subtle flirting/approaching.

    Reply

  4. Ryan

    Scot,

    While men have got more subtle in looking from my experience when I hang with my guy friends they still look just as much as ever.

    The bottom line is men are no longer men, they are simply afraid. Afraid to even be caught looking let alone approach a women. Society has pacified men into a submissive flock of sheep.

    Let them be afraid, let them be sheep. A real women deserves better. It’s a great time to be a wolf in society. There are so many women I wish I had time to date them all. A man who is afraid of a women can’t possible lead her places she’s never been. Can’t possibly enrich her life. Can’t possibly show her true masculine power.

    Reply

    • Me

      The juice aint worth the squeeze. Loreal is a liar. Women ARE NOT WORTH IT.

      You can have every single one of them, Scott….

      Reply

      • I have already chosen my favorite of them all, but thank you for being so generous.

        Reply

        • James Guthrie

          Scott, mine found me 28 years ago, and she had to pull me out of my shell, or I would still be hiding in my house with my dog, and cat.

          Jim

          Reply

      • Jim Lawrence

        Actually, I’ve found women to be rather boring to be around and since i’m fortunate enough to NOT bee ruled by my penis, I have plenty of time and money to perform activities that are really exciting and worthwhile.

        Reply

  5. I think #2, porno, is the reason men are not so
    interested in a real woman’s body. I am older and
    can compare pre porno men to men today. It is
    not just the lack of interest in looking – men are
    not as easily aroused, even the younger ones,
    since the glut of porno. I think men get themselves
    sexually bonded to porno stars.

    Reply

    • Rene

      Hmmm … it is true there are some guys that are affected by porno to the point where they might become addicted and believe sex is always like that. That is due to their lack of experience with reality. With iphones, social media and stuff, men as well as women lose their capacity for real 1 to 1 human interaction. Yet, one cannot put all men in one drawer as anything else. The same goes with porno and men that watch it. Sex can be as hot and sweaty as porno in real life. Remember, men are visual creatures. The ladies have to ask their men what makes them tick in private. Fore-playing and fetishes are great too. Just because one has imagination and a craving for love, hugs, kisses, high heels, etc doesn’t make you a predator.

      Reply

      • Rene

        Least when you just passed by a model on the street and you go “oh my god, man” she is hot. Then you look at her legs and you go “hmmm yum”! Its just natural. Obviously, you get to meet her and you interact having the best intentions for her. Healthy minded men don’t bite, that is for sure.

        Reply

      • Dana

        I am so over the “men are visual creatures” meme. It’s an excuse and it’s insulting to women–guess what? We’re visual creatures too. Go right ahead and not notice that after you have probably joked lots of times in your life about how women can identify 500 different shades of purple. We aren’t *smelling* purple, you know.

        We aren’t as harsh about how a guy looks, we accept a wider range of appearances, but we still *care* about guys’ looks and notice them and are turned on by them.

        Also, have you *seen* porn? Most of the time they look bored. Sweaty? Nah. Porn sex looks nothing like real sex except for the bits fitting together, and even that isn’t representative of most of the bits out there.

        Studies are apparently coming out now showing that porn dampens a guy’s libido. Especially if he masturbates to it.

        I doubt all that many guys really are scared of offending us women if the anonymous comments on Internet articles are any indication. You can’t even get them to admit we deserve equal pay for equal work (oh, but they’ll complain about owing child support!)–why would they care whether we feel threatened by a complete stranger expressing sexual interest?

        Before *anyone* rolls their eyes at that last part, seriously now, I’ve been in enough relationships where we got physically intimate too soon and I was *criticized* for it. If you take these guys at their word they turn around and brand you a slut. Even on the rare occasion they don’t, as often as not you find out they were completely wrong for you. So is there anything wrong with not making every single public interaction between men and women about sex? I’d like to be able to grocery-shop, visit the library, go to work, and whatever else without it being about some guy’s dick. Let me get to know him first and then I might care about that particular body part. No other approach works if I want an actual relationship. So don’t start something you can’t follow up right now.

        Reply

        • marcus

          my question for you is this. if you expect men to fight for your attention. (you say that more in expectation than in your words.) what are you going to do to show this guy you want to be there for him? listen to him? get to know him?

          important..factor you only 5 minutes to make an impression. this is the problem most men have with the way it is now. women are scorched by the news and fed all this negative media. they are legitamitly worried about being assaulted and rightfully so. our issue with this is that it makes yall cold to our advances. it doesnt matter if we are sincere or not. your already in a negative place. maybe not you specifically but alot of women are. when it comes time to go out you definitely want us to forget about the umpteenth 1000th rejection of the day and still go for you that night when your sending us suttle hints to approach you. im sorry but only a fool will do the same thing over and over with no positive results.

          the answer to all this is to give and take with us. you want this well go places where that is evident. be freinds first and for GOD SAKES EXPRESS INTEREST CLEARER. you can either let porn win or fight back for who could be your husband. the sad part is that porn at face value is not dangerous to a relationship. its a way for him to blow off steam without getting blue balls which does exist and does not feel good. also a way for you to not be in the mood and not need to reciprocate his needs. its the same as him doing it in privacy of his own space with no porn. he will think of something else.

          im not harping on you but you sound angry and you should be. SO ARE MEN. WE SEEN AS MONSTERS IN THE NEWS AND OPPPONENTS BY FEMINISM LIKE IT OR NOT. THAT IS THE MESSAGE SENT OVERALL. WE DONT LIKE IT. SHOW US THAT IS NOT ALL WE CAN LOOK FORWARD TO BY TREATING US LIKE HUMANS. WE WILL DO THE SAME. THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN IF YOU GIVE US A WAY IN WE WILL PROBABLY TAKE IT. NOT TALKING ABOUT STRUCTLY SEXUAL EITHER.

          Reply

          • For sure, there are a LOT of men who are FRUSTRATED by the state of affairs today.

            I just might agree with your indirect assessment that it can (and perhaps should) be WOMEN who end up fighting for men’s return to a dignified place in society.

            Just yesterday I saw the term “men’s rights” juxtaposed with the vilest of all accusations. That sort of rhetoric only serves to divide us further.

        • There’s a lot of anger wrapped up in that post, Dana. You make an excellent point about how many men want sex early and often and then “slut shame” the woman for it. I’ve written about that phenomenon before.

          I would encourage you that there are indeed high-quality men out there who view women holistically as human equals. I’d highly recommend reserving your anger for the guys who deserve it and give the “big four” guys a fightin’ chance. You’ll never know who you’ll attract until you give that a shot.

          For what it’s worth, if the shoe were on the other foot and you were a man, I’d tell you something similar.

          Reply

        • Larry

          See this is an example of the type of woman men have no interest in having, she seems like a nag. Why would any man waste a second of his life listening to this.

          Reply

        • Jorge

          “…especially if he masturbates too it ????????????
          What the hell do you think he’s doin’ while watching porn?

          I think the major issue w/ women these days is they think they have a monopoly on intelligence, they’re self centered and pretentious. Not all of them but most of the ones I’ve met and dated.

          I recently broke up a girl who chronically referred to herself in the 3rd person and loved to remind me every chance she had that she was “worth it.” At first, I agreed w/ her. Eventually, and I’m talkin’ like 8 weeks into the relationship, I had to tell her that I wasn’t disagreeing she wasn’t worth it but that she needed to go be worth it somewhere else ????

          Reply

        • Anon

          I agree! All these comments about women just being “sluts and whores” is absolutely disgusting. Reading this made it seem like women are nothing but meat for men to pick and judge so they can stare at the “hotties”. Maybe they actually got INTELLIGENT and found a hobby other than ogling at women all day.

          Reply

          • I usually don’t give a whole lot of attention to people who hide behind anonymity. But this post treads on dangerous territory that I want to point out. The “slut shaming” only makes women more bitter, since they’re sexual creatures in their own right. THAT’S what gives rise to them telling guys to go f- themselves instead. You guys who are shaming women for being sexual are going to get shamed in return, and it was leadership.

            That said, there’s also ANOTHER interesting angle in this post that deserves commentary. More and more, we as men are getting shamed for simply being heterosexual. Admiring women sexually in and of itself is NOT “rapey”, predatory or otherwise abnormal. It’s simply heterosexual. You need heterosexual sex in order to continue the human race.

        • Jim Lawrence

          Your last sentence was really on target. Most of my friends in their late 20′s and early 30′s are simply NOT interested in any sort of long term relationship. Either they’ve been burned or do not look at being tied down as a positive thing. Some date around, while others, like me, are just no longer interested in interacting with women….except on a cash-only basis.

          Jim

          Reply

    • Matt

      I don’t think it is porn to blame here. I’m 24 years old and i don’t really look at women very much anymore. The culture is so different and all this “Rape Culture” or “Creepers” just by saying Hi. All the laws being put up to only imprison Men (Rape by Fraud which means if a man is suspected of lying for sex, he can be punished up to 20 years in prison) Divorce rate up to 50% (3 out of 4 marriages ends in divorce) While majority of men pay into lifetime alimony and 18 years of child support (This stuff was meant to help women, trust me more entrapment happens today by women lying about being on birth control, all for money) So much more then just over-simplified answers is to why men are opting out of marriages or even having a friendly conversation with a women. Soon the western world will look like Japan (Herbivore Men, meaning no more marriages and pretty much dropping out of society all together)

      Reply

      • flailer

        Matt summed it up well.
        MGTOW because:
        - Fact #1 Women simply are not worth the massive legal RISK (never commit, NEVER)
        - Fact #2 Women simply are not worth the social RISK (never interact in a public setting)(simply looking is not interacting)
        - Fact #3 Women rarely, VERY-VERY rarely, deliver what Men want in a relationship. And even when they do: a) the hurdles, the hassles, the cost to men make interacting with Women not worth the effort. And b) even when women do “deliver”, it NEVER means they will continue to deliver, as women are masters of the “game” called duplicity. As the trap tightens, & the man is left with fewer and fewer options the woman leverages that to her favor & her own personal power & abuse of that power…. always at the man’s expense. Heck women can and often do leverage that power even at the expense of the Children !!! (women = total selfishness & duplicity)
        - As a MGTOW living on the CA coast, I look all I want, & like what I see!! But, that doesn’t mean that even 5% of these entitled, over-privileged, self-centered brats are worth tolerating for more than 15 seconds.
        - As a handsome, blonde, blue-eyed, well-built, MGTOW I observe some overt flirting & even some minor stalking (hey, it is a resort area, they come here for a “good time”). But I certainly NEVER feel the need to kowtow to their crappy “sht-tests” , which is the only thing that most women believe gives them “dignity”
        - An overwhelmingly large percentage of women have little honor or honesty. They can not simply be themselves, as they are always “working a game”
        - MGTOW, because western women are raised to be entitled, blame others for anything & everything, are not responsible (morally, financially, or even inter-personally), and as such expect the State to pass laws to protect women from men – protect women from Men behaving like (with the morals of) Women (which is what feminism demanded of men)

        Any questions? Tough crap! Modern Marist culture resulted in the reponse known as MGTOW, and we dont have to explain sh8t to anyone.

        Reply

        • Guys…all I have to say is give LEADERSHIP a try. I promise you that your expectations drive your attitude, which drive who you’re attracting (or not).

          Think about it. How can it be that I myself attracted users, psychos and narcissists…right up until the point where I DECIDED to believe that those women did NOT represent ALL women.

          For what it’s worth, the epidemic at play here is NOT gender specific. Man-bashing women will self-fulfill their prophecies like unto how we as men will if we fall into hatred of women.

          The beautiful difference is, of course, is that we as men lead, and women respond to that leadership. YOUR choice is at play her.

          If you choose to MGTOW, so be it. But don’t let that be purely due to a reaction to what can only be described as following women instead of leading.

          Read Lana’s full comment above for a nice example of how the apparent intricacy of what I’m talking about here is actually rather simple once you dig beneath the surface.

          Reply

          • G

            I got a question for you… Where are we going too lead women as men? Hm? “Hey, honey let me lead you on epic adventure too Walmart, Best Buy, etc.” They can make there own choices, and lead themselves while in a relationship. No matter what we say as men, she going to go with her own opinion anyways and go with it from my personal experience.

          • Leadership is a multi-dimensional term, so this certainly isn’t about them needing an escort to the shopping center or having to be spoon-fed. Have a plan that’s in a woman’s best interest, and most women will appreciate it.

          • Robert

            Sorry Scott, but if you demonstrate this leadership behavior that you espouse you will be bashed as being a selfish narcissistic jerk. You will be verbally lambasted as a chauvinistic neanderthal. I read on the Web recently about the violence from mid eastern refugees against European women, and how the native men should do their best to protect them. About 95% of the male respondents said that they would not put themselves at risk for a bunch of self entitled, spoiled and arrogant women. In fact, a surprising number of men’s replies indicated that they would somewhat relish the possibility of seeing these women “get what they deserved” for being so hate filled against western men.

          • Sorry for what, exactly? That I lead a charmed life enjoying the favor of women everywhere I go?

            Robert, clearly there’s a disconnect between what I’m suggesting and how you’re interpreting it. There’s nothing selfish, narcissistic, chauvinistic or Neanderthal about it.

            Part of the very essence of the “leadership behavior” you speak of is that if you’re angry and bitter toward women, that’s what you’ll get in return.

        • Gunther

          What does Marxism have to do with the state of relationship between men and women and the state of marriage?

          If you are going to use Marxism for what is happening in America, then you can blame Capitalism for not helping women become financially successful, treating them as equal partners in American society, and helping them with job opportunities to be whatever they wanted to be..

          Reply

        • XYZZY

          Perhaps. Yet you see what you choose to see and in what way you like and you only believe what you see. This means that yes, your suggested facts are indeed facts. For you, that is. But even I know it isn’t all that it seems. I’m mostly a recluse, admittedly. Have been through most my years. I know you probably wonder why I’m here, then. Well that’s a good question and one I can’t truthfully answer (yet I do see more from both sides because I’m more detached). But it is irrelevant: I’m here because I am.

          I could invalidate your arguments (more than I already have and yes I have in a sense, albeit subtly) but I don’t see the point: your statements are facts to you for a reason, and my statements are false for that exact same reason. There are two things, though, I will remark on, because I love logical fallacies (not that this is truly a logical fallacy but there is a missing connection) and it is even better when there’s irony involved. I simply cannot resist the temptation:

          Your last paragraph is really amusing. You put in all that emotion (and yes there is plenty there, whether or not you put more in to it is irrelevant) about why you don’t do this, how women aren’t worth the time, the effort or anything else… you have no time for them and they might as well leave the world (though they probably already have left your world in many respects). But yet you insist you shouldn’t have to explain your views. Did you not realise you already had explained your views, with quite an elaboration, even? I would argue that you’ve explained far more of that rubbish you claimed you don’t have to explain.

          Secondly, there is the issue of gratefulness: it seems like you’ve been burnt by women, but yet you’re alive because of a woman – men don’t bear the children (sure, a man was also involved but that is ignoring the entire context). That means your mother is a woman. Are women so horrible that even your mother is not worth anything? Or is she a special case? If she is, then why is it different for others?

          Reply

          • G

            Without men, women would not have children in the first place.

            Are women so horrible that even your mother is not worth anything?

            First of all, many mothers are not worth anything because of what they have done to their children particularly their sons. Secondly, replace the word women with men and replace the word mother with father and then re-direct that question towards women.

          • XYZZY

            Funnily enough I already pointed that out:

            ‘(sure, a man was also involved but that is ignoring the entire context).’

            But yet it also shows just how flawed your logic[1] is. It also shows you’re missing the point: that there’s good and bad in this world; it is not one or the other. All good comes with bad and all bad comes with good (something that many don’t realise but the fact remains mostly good people can have really bad sides to them; the reverse is true: mostly bad people can have good to them[2]). You’re generalising and classifying all (or most) of a gender and there’s over 7 billion people on this planet. So fine, you’ve met horrible women. I’ve met horrible men (and I’m male!) too. Why is that? Humans are the problem – not the gender. In the end, yes some mothers aren’t the best, some have done questionable things, but they are still mothers and they’re still life. The same goes for fathers and the same goes for childless people. See the part about humans and not gender specific.

            [1] Your logic defeats itself: without men women wouldn’t be here, that is true. But ask yourself: would mankind (including indeed men of today) be here without woman? Both are required.
            [2] Good and bad is very subjective, too.

          • G

            Let put it this way. Without the sperm from a man, whether during loving making or at a sperm bank, women can’t produce offspring, so without men, women can’t produce kids.

          • XYZZY

            Yes, I already pointed that out. You’re not telling me anything I don’t know and I don’t think anyone here would find your statements enlightening. As for me, of the many sciences I enjoy, biology is high up on the list. I had already implied your statement and you responded to it. I responded again in a more direct way (because it was subtle before) and you try to tell me what I had already noted, but in a different way? You haven’t taught me anything in the slightest. I think you know this and you know why you haven’t.

            Yet I see that even though you actually acknowledged all that I pointed out, you fail to see this fact. I’ll withdraw myself from a most futile exercise of watching dry paint continue to dry.

          • G

            No one is asking you to stay around.

          • OSRHardHat

            I’ll answer the question, my mother is as self-important and unyielding as the rest of you.

            A terrible person, really.

        • Vic

          Flailer, don’t give up and you could have the wonderful married relationship me and my friends have! On Sundays we get to watch re-runs of Dancing with the Stars and then listen to our wives yell at us because the fried ice we made isn’t fried enough.

          C’MON guys, it’s super fun!

          Reply

          • Jim Lawrence

            The idea of a 2nd marriage is completely abhorrent to me. I like the idea of no wife and no kids. I have had experiences over the last 4 years that my married siblings can only dream about, and there will be many to come. I work only to earn enough money in order to enjoy myself, and that can only be done by travelling fast. And…he travels fastest who travels alone. One more thing…sex has never been worth the cost.

        • Samuel

          From my perspective MGTOW seems like a sane response. I had female friends in high school, but never came close to anything serious with any of them. In college it was the same thing. None of them had what I was looking for, though several were interested in a serious relationship with me. Now I’m married (and living in South America) and having heard of MGTOW for the first time after getting married I still agree with the principle, though I don’t regret getting married.

          I feel that it’s time for women to start taking the lead and showing interest in men, if they are interested. The social and legal climate can make any interaction with a woman dangerous, and many men may not want to take the risk. If a woman is interested in having a relationship, she needs to gain a man’s trust first.

          Are men scared of women? No, but we’re not scared of traffic either, we just know better than to step in front of a bus on the interstate.

          Reply

      • Bill

        Matt, these days saying hello or even looking too look at a woman freaks them out. they might think that you want to ask them for a date! And unless you are in the upper 20% they will be angry or frightened. The point is don’t look at them at all except for a cursory look to make sure than you don’t knock them down by mistake,

        Reply

    • Kev

      My reasons for not being attracted to women.

      1. Feminists openly hating men
      2. Fat pride is ugly and unhealthy
      3. Not just porn but fetish porn that isn’t even human is now considered sexier than real life women and can be obtained a hell of a lot more innocently than a prostitute.
      4. Women expecting money for sex is a turn off in a bad economy.
      5. STD’s
      6. The fact that women can pickup any number of guys at any time just strengthens the fear of STD’s. And Roast beef…
      7. Expectations, expectations. Women have a shit ton of them for men. At least 6ft, rich, great personality, OBEYS THE MATRIARCHY! ehem…
      8. I don’t need to post more…

      Reply

      • XYZZY

        You have expectations too, it seems.

        1. Too many women hate men (I’m sure the reverse isn’t true, definitely not, you’re a perfect example, it seems).
        2. Too many women are ‘fat’, proud of it and it is ‘unhealthy’ (I’m also sure that similar isn’t true for men).
        3. I’m sure there is something here but it isn’t really adding up to my tired head.
        4. Women supposedly expect money for sex, and it is a turn off in a bad economy (I suppose when it isn’t a bad economy though, it will be a turn on? Or maybe it is they won’t do it while the economy is good? Sorry to break it to you but it isn’t to do with the economy itself).
        5. Women full of STDs, because like the next point makes clear, women are with everyone, well many, anyway. Not you?
        6. Women supposedly pick up all these men they want. Except the one that inspired Scot to write this post, of course. And when they do they ignore certain men.
        7. Too many expectations. Expectations about expectations.

        The reality is this: we all have expectations of some kind or another (from people, things, life, everything), and some of it is hope/desire, which isn’t the same thing. But why would anyone wish to be miserable, to not have certain things their way?

        Reply

        • JGFYS

          Just shut it, will you? So what if the man has expectations? No one said men aren’t supposed to have expectations here. Men do have expectations, and based on that men built what you take for granted: civilization.
          When some b*tch tries to shame men for having expectations, though, you get what you’ve been getting now: b*tches ain’t getting married. Because men don’t need that sh*t, and it’s a free market. Go try to sell it elsewhere.

          Reply

          • Now you’re overreacting. The commenter made no such assertion. I’m starting to believe you’re a walking self-fulfilling prophecy, “JGFYS”. I mean, start with your username. Who or what are you attracting with your demeanor?

          • XYZZY

            What a charming, emotional and well thought out response. Perhaps against better judgement, I will respond (hopefully just as charming, emotional and well thought out).

            Since it obviously escaped your notice, I’ll point out the context: I was responding to the complaint about too many expectations. The fact the commentator had many expectations, is then, my point; don’t complain about something that you yourself do. But if you do don’t be surprised if someone complains about it (or points it out, like I did[1]) to you. Some people call this hypocrisy but I’ll let you decide for yourself. Whether one cares is another matter entirely (presumably this response has the same fate but a few minutes lost in thought isn’t all that tragic to me).

            Of course we all have expectations. I’m not the one complaining about that, nor would I ever. That’s why I was pointing out the folly in it. Had you read the final paragraph you’d understand this:

            “The reality is this: we all have expectations of some kind or another (from people, things, life, everything), and some of it is hope/desire, which isn’t the same thing. But why would anyone wish to be miserable, to not have certain things their way?”

            [1] Observe it didn’t bother me. I was mostly amused and I pointed out the folly. Of course, I was also polite because that is how adults behave.

  6. Jim

    Scott Meister!!!

    You have hit the nail on the head here!! I am an avid people watcher in general, and yes, I think this “ignorance of fellow humans” is epidemic. And yes, I truly believe it has EVERYTHING to do with the “creep factor” or being seen as predatory or a stalker. I myself CONSCIOUSLY avoid looking at women many times for these very reasons. And in the workplace, I treat women as if they have Ebola. I have a very lucrative career as a consultant, and the last thing I want to do is have it hijacked by a woman trying to retire 30 years early on a golden parachute.

    Oddly though, I have always subscribed to one of your last points. That being that a live woman on my arm is infinitely more pleasing than any picture or porn of any kind. In fact, the last time I looked at any kind of porn, was when I was a teenager looking at a friends Playboy magazine. I’ve never actually actively viewed any kind of porn in my life other than that. But I’m probably an odd ball in that sense.

    I’m 57 years old, and in my lifetime, I have seen a real wedge come between the sexes, especially here in the USA. It’s sad really. And I’m not sure what the answer is either.

    Reply

  7. Siberia

    All is true and not only in USA. I live in Russia and it is the same though sexual harassment isn’t an official issue yet here. I doubt myself thinking may be I’m not attractive.. And no sex or dates for five years

    Reply

    • We visited your fascinating homeland back in April and yes indeed, there are lots of beautiful women there.

      I can’t help but wonder what might be holding you back from getting the attention from high quality guys that you’d like.

      Reply

  8. I am always looking at the women moreso in an admiring way than any way else. A beautiful woman walks by me, I figure she did on purpose. Because in her primitive brain, she cant help but pass me, because she knows I’m going to give her a sincere compliment. I’m not trying to pick her up because I’ve already got a smoking hot girlfriend.

    Reply

  9. Chris

    Interesting post. I think it’s a combination of things, including what you brought up. It could also be straight up desensitization. We see so many fit attractive women that it becomes the norm (a result of more and more women doing the best with what they’ve got). In places where attractive people congregate this would be even more impactful.

    Reply

    • I can see your point, but then again there were a LOT of women at the college I went to and we never seemed to tire from admiring them.

      Reply

  10. We don’t even say a smiling “Hi there” anymore yet communicate electronically more than ever but talk to each other less and less.

    Reply

    • In other words, this is a reminder to call Mom, right? (Ha…you know I couldn’t resist that one.)

      Reply

    • Um, speak for yourself. I’m 41 and I still don’t ever miss even a remotely attractive female anywhere within the range of my eyesight. I even notice the average,the meh, and the oh crap look away look away! Because my eyes and brain are conditioned to spot feminine features from the instant they enter my field of vision, which means that I’m looking long before I’m close enough to make a full analysis! And as for subtlety, I got a “subtle” elbow to the ribs in church this morning when Mrs R***** looked over and noticed me noticing one of my young buddies’ smoking new girlfriend in her “not really appropriate for church” little blue dress!!! The media and trained squads of screeching Feminazis and Militant Homers may want to portray American Society as a nation of manicured and castrated metrosexual girly-men, but if that were truly the case, the majority of those spam ads on every website you visit wouldn’t be plastered with headlines like “Hollywood’s Best Boobs” or “Kate Upton…anything”!!! And BTW, how can I get my hands on some of those new “skinny pills” and/or “Learn to Speak Spanish”? Wowzer!!!

      Reply

  11. Louis

    Men still look, but approach less often. Lots of men are afraid of being rejected, but not all. I read lots of e-info about how to get women to want you. But, WHY? Women have declared liberation and being independent. So why do men have to always pursue?I think most of what we read is hocus-pocus nonsense for selling information. If men and women seek companionship, then let women join in the pursuit game. For all this really is just a game. A game of egos. Male egos in conquest. Female egos in being desired.

    Louis

    Reply

    • In theory that sounds great, but in reality the vast majority of women are turned on by the man taking the lead and acting with boldness. When they assume that role it feels masculine to them, greatly diminishing attraction. I see it more as a “dance” than a “game”, actually.

      Reply

      • OSRHardHat

        Just as men have had to readjust to the new reality, so do women.

        Women by and large created this dynamic, let them be forever unfulfilled because of their attitudes.

        A man seriously cannot get a woman to cede a point ever.

        (Ok, slighty hyperbolic, just barely)

        This is who we are to lead? They are awful, self-centered, hypergamous people. It’s too much work, both in the attracting and in the keeping.

        Too answer your blog post question though, I do look, however I am unconcerned about being thought of as ‘creepy’ because I understand that the word has no root in behavior but rather in appearance.

        But I do not approach and I refuse to utter a kind word to those validation vampires.

        Reply

        • Do you sincerely believe creepiness has no root in behavior? I think you’ll find that most people firmly understand it to have quite a lot to do with behavior.

          Reply

  12. Caroline

    I think that the things you have listed are only factors that help perpetuate the trend. I think that the root lies closer to how many people feel overwhelmed and out of control of their everyday lives. They already feel each day as a grind that doesn’t seem to ease and aren’t sure where to start to build new skills and feel like things are starting to improve.

    While they feel as if they’re stuck struggling to provide themselves with a satisfactory quality of life; they feel, sometimes quite strongly, that beginning a serious relationship with ANYONE will only add a heavier load onto their already aching shoulders.

    So, to get back to the main topic, when they ignore the women around them it is not out of apathy, it is more akin to a woman who works cleaning at a fancy store who doesn’t even seem to react to the things she finds really beautiful anymore

    Reply

  13. Athirson

    I’m donning my asbestos underwear, because I’m about so say something that is majorly un-politically correct.

    The reason men don’t look at, much less approach, women anymore can be summed up in one word. The word is: Feminism.

    Reply

    • No change of underwear necessary.

      Reply

      • J

        LOL, It is feminism, and for me also having a conscious. Perhaps it is going overboard, but I grew up with two younger attractive sisters and had to help them deal with unwanted male attention (sometimes for their own safety!) and I just can’t stomach being lumped in with all the “creeps” that I used to protect my sisters from.
        So yeah, I avoid looking too much and almost never approach. And I am still single.

        Reply

        • Ultimately, it comes down to this: Do you have the best interests of the woman at heart, or is your motivation purely selfish? The key is to want to put the woman at ease and give her the opportunity to meet a great guy like you. It’s hard to come off as creepy if that’s all the case.

          Reply

          • JGFYS

            To put the woman’s interest at heart? Like, seriously?? The man must put HIS own interests at heart, buddy. Because trust me, no one else is going to do that. Not even this woman you’re telling him to put on a pedestal.

          • You’ve allowed yourself to get worked into a frenzy here, JGFYS. I find it hard to believe your pessimism has allowed you to believe that simply meaning well is tantamount to putting women on a pedestal. What are you advocating here, NOT looking out for their best interests? Wanton selfish indulgence without humane boundaries? I trust not, as the last time that outlook prevailed in your neck o’ the woods the Nanking Massacre ensued.

          • wez

            uh.. i have to agree with JGFYS here tho scot (great article/post btw), but virtually no one (least of all women) is looking after the “best interests” of men these days..

            i work on a college campus and the fact that the university makes all freshmen boys sign an affidavit saying they “will not rape” as well as take a mandatory “no means no” course is degrading to the sensibilities of these lads. if anything, I’ve seen women act far more predatory in terms of wanting to get laid, then regretting in the morning and claiming “rape”…

            but where is MENS justice? where are the classes for freshman girls about when you say yes, it means that you’ve made your own mind up?!!?

            MGTOW may be an extreme reaction to these things, but it is a prudent decision if a guy wants a career or a house in the future instead of child support payments and an efficiency apt.

            your point about leadership (which is what i actually study and write about) is a valid one, however, MGTOW is the acknowledgement of men understanding that the real leadership is now in the hands of the feminist lobby that continues to make it increasingly difficult to WANT to get married. bc marriage may be bliss, but if it isn’t? well, then.. the fun family courts will take not only your children away from you but your money, your livelihood and in all likelihood your future of ever finding another wife..

            men not looking at women, is a reactionary device in response to the past ten years (i know feminism has been around a lot longer) of ULTRA feminism that has crept into the curriculum of major universities.. parents have always told their daughters about the danger of being alone on the street late at night, carry your car keys through your knuckles, carry mace, etc etc… but Parents now really need to teach their BOYS the dangers of falling in love with a women who could potentially ruin their life..

            p.s. google “divorce rates vs male suicide”

          • Thank you for your truly thoughtful, objective response, Wez. (BTW, that’s the only kind I’m going to approve going forward.)

            Again, I have to assert that it’s not ALL women who seek to disparage men. Lumping any large population of human beings (let alone half of them) into a negative category is at best narrow-minded, and that’s being diplomatic. So in other words, just because extremist feminism erroneously thinks ALL men are bad, our response as men should be to avoid ALL women?

            Someone’s got to rise above that small-minded thinking, and that’s got to be men of character. Frankly, do you think the good women out there are pleased that so many men are afraid of marriage for the reasons you stated?

            Believe me, I’m not blind to what happens when angry women organize. A couple of years ago when those “street harassment” videos surfaced I was leading the counterpoint, even as half the likes on those videos were from MEN. I will not be brainwashed into believing all men are bad, BUT I will also not be brainwashed into believing all women are bad either. Importantly, while angry guys branded those behind such videos as “feminists”, it was really just angry, damaged women…and yes, there’s a difference.

            I challenge your pronouncement that the “real leadership is now in the hands of the feminist lobby”. Nonsense. Wez, the “tough love” here is that if you work for a college that operates as you described, then you’ve voluntarily chosen to buy into the system and accept their paychecks. The same holds true for any freshman boy who enrolls, having failed to ask the right questions. You and the freshman boys all have OPTIONS, as do people of color or LGBT when faced with equally ridiculous gestures of marginalization.

            Those angry women cannot slap an undeserving label on me, but nor can I be dissuaded from enjoying the company of women. I apologize like a man only for myself when warranted, and never on behalf of men in general. Meanwhile, angry women who seek to ruin my life are avoided in favor of well-meaning female human beings of character…and you can best believe I’m teaching my boy how to avoid the wrong women.

            As for the legal system, again…NOBODY wins in family court except for lawyers. That’s a fact.

  14. ra

    well the feminists & the PC’ers & the “alpha bitches” of the world have finally gotten what they “thought” they wanted…AND they don’t like it…
    ..a society full of balless, emasculated, males too afraid to be real men …..
    LMFAO :-) ))))))))))))))))))))))

    Reply

  15. J

    It’s true; I feel invisible nearly 100% of the time, even when going out. One interesting observation is guys are more likely to yell something like “You’re beautiful, babe” out their car window than actually approach. Also (I find this really strange), if I happen to go somewhere after working horses — dusty, sweaty, gritty, no makeup — I can almost guarantee some guy is going to come up and talk to me. Not so when I’m looking better than something the cat dragged in. Then, most of the fellas who do approach get so touchy feely so fast (we just met 5 minutes ago, why are you trying to grab me?) I’m outta there real quick. While I’d love for a “big four” man to say hi, it’s gotten to the point where I’m thinking that in order to find a guy who’ll get to know me before becoming physically aggressive I’m going to have to do the approaching! Of course, those end up being great guys who turn into friends, but they don’t ask me out even when they act like they like me so I guess it’s sorta lose-lose!

    Reply

    • Yep…what I call “hit and run” interactions. Guys will blurt out a quick compliment, but then they run and hide somehow.

      By the way, see there guys? The truth is that if you know how to stay respectful as your “big four” confident masculinity carries you, you’ll have hardly any competition.

      Reply

      • Reggie

        This is a pretty old post but I do feel like throwing my thoughts out there. In my case, I am actually pretty fearless by nature (almost getting myself killed/dismembered growing up several times) so I have no problem approaching women. My problem is that I’ve never met local women I’ve been attracted to outside of physical attraction. The most attractive women I have ever met have all been very modestly dressed or wearing a veil in the case of Muslim women, and they were all attractive because they seemed to both respect themselves and respect me as a man by not flaunting their sexuality in my face.

        Also, there is something tenderly beautiful about genuine modesty and shyness, and this is something many young women have completely forgotten. You can use your body to lure in a man’s desires, but those desires dissipate rapidly.

        Also, something my mother observed (between badgering me to find a girlfriend) is how the young ladies of my generation have become noticeably more vulgar in their speech and actions than she was ever used to. Often “F**K THIS” or “I’m so glad we’re done that s**t” or “She’s such a b***h” are more commonplace than reserved, feminine speech that my mother and her peers were raised with. The proliferation of tattoos and piercings everywhere also make me question the judgement of many young women today.

        I’ve also found it hard to have fun with girls in my peer group, with the exception of some subcultures. Often it seems like we’re expected to entertain them rather than experience a genuine conversation.

        I used to be pretty hopeless until I discovered women outside of our culture (i.e., Western culture) who are raised to be respectful of and at peace with men, morality and their own sex. Many (though not all) Latin American women, Mid-east women and to an extent women from eastern Europe are usually more enjoyable to deal with and tend to have softer dispositions than Western women, which makes men feel more confident to be masculine in response.

        I’m not denying your arguments either, by the way. Pornography has been a plague for us young men, myself included, as we have been exposed to it in some form or another since very early childhood. Sexuality that emphasizes fertility and marital unions are almost considered evil in the West, whereas with non-Western women I find this is the desired goal rather than some repressive institution.

        As for me, I’m a well educated young man but I just don’t feel I want to be involved with a superficial woman. I would prefer to marry a modestly dressed, soft mannered woman, so I am likely going to move to the eastern Med or beyond. I am thinking either Lebanon, UAE or Iran, as I know people there and I could get establish fairly easily. Anyways, good article, and I’m glad I could post my thoughts too!

        Reply

  16. S

    In the words of the immortal Guess Who
    defining feminine American “motos” attitudes
    American Woman “now stay away”
    S.American woman, now c’est la vie !!!

    Reply

  17. Bill

    Hey Scot- Great topic. I feel really bad for this girl not getting enough attention.

    I wonder if she says hello or smiles at anyone when she walks down the street- maybe she does.

    What I see is that even unattractive girls act like they don’t even want to be looked at. Will they say hello- rarely.

    A couple years ago I touched a female co-worker on the shoulders. I wasn’t sexual at all, at least I didn’t think so. This lady was about a 4 on a good day. It was kinda like you would touch a buddy. Anyway, I was written up for sexual harassment. I was even advised to not look at people or talk to them. I really thought it was nothing, but any big company will act that way to cover their butts.

    It hasn’t stopped me from looking, but approaching yes. I see many women just walking down the street are more interested in their phone wearing headphones and looking off in the distance. Maybe, it’s just the city I live in, but I think people in general were more friendly in the past

    Reply

  18. Adis

    Nah I admire womens physical beauty all the time. All it takes is a well shaped women for me to start thanking the Lord for puting me on his earth.

    Ouh and if I see a women jogging/runing I fall in love for couple of seconds purely physical, beautiful.

    Sadly I think your right with the post, I saw a man thats more than twice my age in a library looking at a hot blond almost nervously, so yeah people are kind of afraid to show “your very hot” signals even if theyre not interested in that woman, weird I know.

    Reply

    • Now see? Beautiful women inspire you to thank the Lord and say your prayers. How bad can that be, right?

      If I remember correctly, I said a quick silent prayer of thanks the moment I met Emily on our first date. I know the feeling…all too well.

      Reply

  19. Great Article Scott.. and yes you hit on two key points… how technology in the shape of mobile phones is having a major impact in how we communicate. And how “political correctness” is shaping our “social” behaviour.” I have been doing a lot of research into this area myself being by profession and evolutionary psychologist who specialises in “human relationship”. There is a lot of underlying factors going on that is having an impact on how men and women in modern society are communicating with each other. And there is one thing I can say… both men and women are losing the art of actually human face-to-face “social communication” and it is being replaced by technology.It shows there is something wrong when like you I am coaching both men and women who on the face of it are attractive, intelligent and successful in their life… the basics of “how” to natural communicate both socially and intimately with members of the opposite sex. As a Scientist I have asked the question.. “what is going on here?” So your article caught my attention in my inbox… And yes Scott… you did some real science and have touched on some of the factors I have observed myself… and is a real problem that is growing between men and women. The loss of “natural human” communication between men and women that is being replaced by technology and highly influenced by “political correctness.” There are many more other factor and I would love to share a discussion with you on this subject.

    Reply

    • I’m thrilled to have a scientist agree with the thoughts in this somewhat off-hand blog post. And sure, I’d be happy to discuss the topic further with you. How about we record it for my Power Sessions guys? I’m sure it would be great.

      Reply

    • SK

      Ange & Scott,

      I am a single woman age 40 living in NYC and have a deep interest in this topic. I am very adept at connecting with people and am highly distressed by the state of human connection at least in NYC in this modern era. Luckily, I lived in a time before where I know the difference.

      I have many well thought ideas regarding the reasons for this turn of human connection and at this point more interested in coming up with solutions to reverse the damage that has been done. I believe it is up to women to start the change.

      I worry about the young men and women and what they will be up against. Everyone wants to be loved and wanted. And life was not meant to be lived indefinitely alone. The breakdown of the family at the root has had far reaching implications.

      I would love to discuss this topic in more depth. Please feel free to connect with me.

      Scott, great article. Thank you for sharing and providing thoughtful opinions and comments.

      Reply

      • You’re quite welcome, of course. You bring up a number of points that entire books could be written about!

        And indeed, every indication I get is that NYC is particularly challenging as a dating scene.

        Reply

  20. X

    I have a few friends with which I sometimes discuss girls. Like when we walk on the street and we notice a beautiful girl, we are like: “Oh, look at that girl with the tight jeans.” But when I try that with other friends or acquaintances, their response is: “Do you always think about that?” They look at me like I’m immature. Well, I guess the grown up men look at girls the same way they look at other men. lol

    Please, pardon my English. It’s not my native language.

    Reply

  21. Alfredo

    great topic, scot and i gotta tell you as i live in south mexico in a place near cancun and has become a highly tourist area, our peeps cant seem to get enough of girls especially the ones who are only passing through town, all those guys i mentioned are poor-low-class individuals which are mostly known simply as “sharks” and something that i have come to notice is the girls swinging by ,call them american or european are more into them due to their opposite skin looks so there’s hardly any chance for them to actually like white higher status guys. granted, i think this is a whole deifferent scenario than the one you were discribing above like in such places as florida, for instance.

    Reply

  22. Essi

    Hi Scot. Great topic. The three conspires are true. I think there is one thing could be add to the list. We live in the time that we as boys and men are not mentally strong. In the new world leading means cruelty . Fiminsm idea teach us men and women are the same. That’s the reason I don’t agree with the whole conception of Fiminism. Men and women are not the same. We are equal. My friends expect girls to approach them. They think we are not living in the past so if the guy approach the girl he is some pussy or pervert! We think it is bad that talking about sex with opposit sex or MOTOS!
    I can see that women and men are born to attract each other. this is nature. Im not a fan of “idea of construction workers wolf whistling at women” but the guys doing that are the proof that men naturally approach women. Now we are more civilized and we can doing that more civilized!
    I hope new conceptions of new world will be more than bad judging and seeing others as pervert!

    Reply

  23. An observation: I was at the Atlantic City, NJ Boardwalk museum a while back. They had many old newspaper prints and photos that featured everyday women in the 1930′s and 40′s in bathing suits (very modest in those days). These women were posing in a happy, cheery, cutesy short of way, lot of titled heads and big inviting smiles as if to say “come and squeeze me.” They seemed happy to be women. Women today in their bikinis do not seem friendly to men – hardly give them a glance, let alone a smile. Maybe women today are afraid to be friendly because they think that means casual sex. In the old movies of the 30′s and 40′s, a woman would invite a man to her room and there was no indication or expectation of sex by the man in the film. In one movie I just viewed from 1942, the man and women were on her bed – and still no sexual advances, just friendly affection and conversation. End of observations.

    Reply

    • I’m pretty sure that plenty of modern women know how to communicate that “come and squeeze me” look. Meanwhile, there are indeed lots of women who wear bikinis and then look for reasons to get angry at men who admire them. It all depends on mindset. Each of us is different.

      Reply

  24. jk

    The loose of spiritual (even natural) knowledge. Man and woman must walk together for continuance of spices. Symptoms of ignorance; Man on man (sexual drive maybe stronger) when it is really bad woman on woman. Religion killed more people on this Earth; Than I guess a disease.

    Reply

  25. Colm

    Good article, Scot.

    I am 65 so I remember the days of rude comments. I also remember women with enough courage to enjoy the attention. It is not just men who have been sissified in our society. What ever happened to ‘I am responsible for my reactions!’?

    I always found rude comments and ‘hey thing’ type attention objectionable. My Momma done taught me to respect women. (grin) Actually she showed me many of the ways women are a delight.

    All of the negativity about men has caused me to examine how I can continue to enjoy and acknowledge the beauty and grace of women in a way that adds to their self confidence and makes their day a bit brighter.

    My final choice has been to continue to enjoy looking and to notice the woman’s response to my attention. My intent is to acknowledge the grace and beauty of women. Many women (girls really) get upset by my noticing them. And I am delighted to report many women light up and smile, some even expand their presence in response.

    As a child my father advised that I not make my life choices based on what complainers and whiners tell me. I have been pleased with the results of following his advise.

    So, I continue to enjoy the beauty of women being careful to keep my intent to bring them pleasure in mind. My results have been a sense of freedom and the pleasure of women smiling.

    When I discussed the whole ‘look / don’t look’ question with a mystic, he grinned and quipped, “You know, the scowls come from women enjoying their misery. Let them enjoy.”

    Reply

  26. Dan

    Sadly, I think part of it has to do with the whole concept of being “too good to be true.” A lot of guys know they don’t have the courage to approach her, so they would probably rather not even look at her. At least that’s how it’s been for me at times. I did notice her briefly, but I didn’t want her to notice me- if she doesn’t notice me, she can’t reject me. It’s no fun seeing something you want so much and at the same time knowing you’ll never have it!

    Reply

    • I agree that a lot of guys likely feel that way.

      Reply

    • Gunther

      The problem is that society for hundreds of years has never taught men how to approach women, talk to them, etc. Many parents don’t teach it to their kids, schools don’t teach it, and you learn it from your friends, reading books and mazagines or from trial and error on your part.

      Reply

  27. Brian

    I certainly don’t have that problem, I do notice them and may not be so subtle about it either! My friends who are in relationships also notice them as well, we talk about it for sure! It wouldn’t surprise me however if this was indeed happening, what you had noticed? The whole dating thing seems so complex anymore, if you don’t know all the rules… perhaps many people are tired of the whole thing, it may seem too overwhelming, perhaps it’s more of a why bother? In today’s world I can easily see that being the case

    Reply

    • Call it “relational laziness”, perhaps?

      Reply

      • Brian

        Perhaps in some situations, some may just be overwhelm, what do people do when overwhelmed, they procrastinate and usually do nothing, too worried about doing the right thing, I agree above, technology to many is ‘safe’ and it’s easier for people to interact behind screens and texts, to remain more anonymous, not such a blow to the ego if something goes wrong. I’m not so sure all of this is not relational laziness as just plain fear.

        Reply

  28. Michelle

    No you are not far off base in my opinion. I think all of those factors are valid and I have noticed the trend as well. However being the (I’d like to say typical) female with body insecurities I have honestly been feeling because of the lack of attention (very rarely these days) that my looks must have taken a HUGE nosedive as of the past 5 plus years. I’ve been told by female friends, family and even my exes that I still look beautiful (A couple of them have commented that I look even more so as time has passed :) but it’s hard when going out and about that guys rarely act interested anymore. It’s not that I need random attention or I’ll just die. I have great self esteem and faith in my abilities and unique gifts as I want all of my fellow ladies to have. Nor do I consider myself anti-feminist. I’m a woman however plain and simple. And being the type of woman I am hearing genuine compliments sometimes or garnering a few admiring glances from the opposite sex really makes me feel incredible! So shoot me. Now is this boost from (non-creepy/stalker) male attention hardwired into all women? I’m not sure. But I can say this. Any woman I’ve seen that gets that kind of attention never fails to light up or forget it. Even if she feigns mild irritation at the time.
    Being a 70′s kid I am old enough to remember my mom getting cat called or even hit on regularly and she would blush and just kind of laugh but she was always gracious about it. But no one ever crossed the line or got aggressive. Maybe the issue at stake is about BALANCE. And yes regrettably a lot of my male friends, one in particular, have bemoaned how ‘wussified’ males have become towards females and this swinging into the complete opposite end of the spectrum is what really sucks for us ladies out there that appreciate male attention. As if the media doesn’t put enough of a spotlight on how our bodies should be looking we now have the double whammy of guys too afraid to look and too afraid to give a nice compliment. So it becomes even harder to love and appreciate how we look.
    My real question for our society is when are we going to finally find some balance? You can see extremes and then the rebound effect all throughout our fairly brief history-puritanism, slavery, witch trials, etc. Why do so many of us now days get offended so easily by..well nearly everything it seems? What is so wrong with some good old fashioned appreciation for the female body without us getting offended or irritated by it? Yes there is such thing as going overboard and offensive. I’m not debating that real sexual harassment happens and that it is never OK. But we as women can’t let the ‘bad apples’ spoil the bunch. Like us men are wonderful creatures in their own right. Let’s actually let them be who and what they are!

    Reply

    • Michelle, your opinion would appear to be similar to lots and lots of women’s opinions elsewhere, I’d say.

      Reply

    • Kevin

      This is also the controlled “media” doing damage by subtly programming women to hate & disrespect men , notice men are always portrayed as stupid worthless sex crazed beasts , whilst women are portrayed as far superior & perfect !! Also women are generally very hostile towards men nowadays , a lot of women go out with the objective of getting men to pay for drinks , then rejecting them as nastily as possible afterwards , are you surprised men are wising up & refusing to give women even a glance & in a lot of cases avoiding them altogether !!

      Reply

      • Kevin, in 48 years of life I’ve *never* had a woman respond to me in the manner you’re describing. If this is happening to you routinely, it’s your leadership that’s causing it.

        Don’t shoot the messenger. I’m telling it like it is.

        Reply

        • Kevin

          Scott , this has never happened to me personally , simply because I’m not stupid & would never allow little slags like those ” girls ” do this to me , was working as door staff &observed them doing this to any guy that approached them, so I threw them out to prevent trouble breaking out , have observed this in other venues too. You are right about leadership ( I’m a former British Army NCO ) I have signed up as an affiliate for both your own & Emily’s products as there is a large market for & a need for these…so NO shooting the messenger here. I hope Emily is edumckayting the ladies , they need to work on themselves too !!

          Reply

  29. Ellis

    Hi Scott and fellow readers,

    I live in the Trinidad and Tobago (ie in the Caribbean). I don’t see the looking problem in my country. We men look and comment. We comment amongst ourselves and to the women. Most comments are along the construction worker example Scott mentioned. The bad precepts of sexual harassment has not hit here yet. Though we as a society have our differences, we touch more than other societies, we are one of the major homes of Carnival (‘sexual’ dancing (wining) in the streets, soca music, scantily clad women, the greatest party on Earth). At Carnival time, some men feel it is easier to approach women to dance (wine as we call it). Carnival is a time to release your inhibitions. This does not mean that all approaches are successful. Outside of Carnival, I see the technology really creating a problem, especially with one on one, face to face social interactions. Social media technology is really killing the skill of face to face social interaction. So we have a problem here as well I think it is the technology.

    Reply

  30. J.D.

    Part of it could be futility. Guys who have never once managed to “pick up” a woman out in public by cold approaching (meaning, most guys) subconsciously decide to stop torturing themselves looking at what they can’t have.

    Reply

  31. Jonathan

    Im 36, my girlfriend is 31, and we’ve been together almost 4 years with a 17 month old son. I have rarely been tempted to date other women. That has little to do with her quality and more to do with that of my options. I’m rarely generous enough to rate a woman “only good enough for sex”, and fewer still meet my “non-standards” of White, single, non-smoker.

    Reply

    • Jonathan

      I also rarely consider a woman attractive over the age of 25, so that drastically narrows what I’ll even begin to notice.
      I do tell my girlfriend she’s my 100%; because that’s what 3/3 makes.
      If I were to make a list of 10 qualities and rate each out of 10, I’d have to move to Russia or something to find a woman who rates better than 40%.

      Reply

  32. Rick

    All it takes is watching a friend get publicly called out for “noticing” or run through the HR harassment meat grinder to quickly move the sorts of actions described into the “don’t pass the cost benefits analysis” category.

    By now every guy has had this happen to him or seen it happen to a friend. I understand how some women feel invisible now, but its the “protections” that got legislated and HR policies their sisters advocated that made it that way.

    Reply

  33. Wally Konstanty

    1/ Feminism
    2/ Porn
    3/ Political Correctness
    4/ Wussification of the male due to the above as well as negative media portrayals of males.

    In short, who needs women who often affect a superior look and/or a scowl?

    Reply

  34. Boobie the Rocket Dog

    I love to watch women dance; I don’t much like to dance with them. The latter is work; the former is play.

    Reply

  35. Delagrey

    I think that it is straight up conditioning by the times we live in. These men are simply exhibiting a basic survival instinct of living in 2014 “PC is our official religion” America. A beautiful woman in a dress with a neckline that dips nearly to her navel passes by. You very subtly take a quick look. She screams “my eyes are up here asshole!”.

    Ta Da! Swift and terrible public retribution for being a “creep” and for the crime daring to notice a woman who is obviously screaming for attention. Multiply this by thousands and thousands of examples and you get men who are completely conditioned to take great care NOT TO NOTICE. You get more of the behavior you reward so if a lady complains these days of being invisible then she need only thank other women.

    Reply

    • You know, you bring up a great point.

      I personally believe that when the rampant man-bashing and “creep shaming” eventually stops, it will have been WOMEN who led the charge. I can’t wait for all the women who want their real man back to stand up and be counted.

      Reply

      • Kevin

        Unfortunately too much damage has been done over nearly 4 generations & the gulf is widening between the genders by the day , it will take a lot of time & effort to repair the damage , if it can be reversed.

        Reply

        • Mickey

          Kevin, you are so right!!! I will only add that after being hit with so much anti-male hostility on a regular basis, too many guys become too demoralized/jaded to care anymore.

          Reply

      • Mickey

        “I personally believe that when the rampant man-bashing and “creep shaming” eventually stops, it will have been WOMEN who led the charge. I can’t wait for all the women who want their real man back to stand up and be counted.”

        MAN, ARE YOU IN FOR A LONG WAIT!!!

        Reply

        • Am I? It’s already happening. You just have to stop focusing on the angry women who are spreading the hate message. For example, note that there are FAR, FAR fewer commercials nowadays on TV that openly ridicule men. There can only be one reason for that: It stopped converting with what was perceived to be a primarily female spending base.

          Reply

          • Mickey

            Here’s the problem: When all a guy ever hears every freakin’ day is “men are dogs”, “men are players”, “men are rapists”, “men are no good”, and the like, one becomes a little hard pressed to approach and engage the so-called “fair sex”. This is especially the case when most women consider men to be the enemy. Add a couple of generations of legally sanctioned misandry being pushed down our collective throat, this is what we now have: guys who have given the middle finger to approaching and meeting women. So much for gender reconciliation.

          • Mickey, if that’s ALL you ever hear every freakin’ day then you’re tuned in to the wrong channel. You’re letting a small minority of vocal, angry women control your mind. If you are a “big four” man of character, it’ll be a rare occasion that you’re blindly accused of any of those scurrilous generalizations.

            Do you really want to frustrate the women who would seek to disparage you? Represent the solution instead of the problem, and do it proudly. To heck with the women who don’t like or want men, because they’re not the ones a high quality man will desire anyway. Pay attention to whom you’re attracted to, not those you aren’t.

    • Delagray, i wouldv had the perfect comeback for her. thats when i wouldv looked her right in the eyes and said, i know, but i wasnt looking at your eyes. i opened a door one time for a woman, someone peed in her corn flakes before she got to me. she said defiantly, you dont have to get the door for me because im a lady, and i said i didnt. i got the door because im a gentleman, and i kept walking. most women that dont appreciate a sincere compliment grew up in a household of men haters, or they have friends that are, or they just lack self esteem.

      Reply

      • i got the door because im a gentleman

        I’m incredibly proud of that reply. Well done.

        Reply

      • Kevin

        Another ace article , Scott , we men are demonised & viewed as disgusting sex crazed pieces of excreta by the controlled ” media ” The ” media ” is playing the Divide & Rule game to make everyone fear & hate everyone else , it’s part of their owners agendas. Many men out there assume that all women HATE men , which results in men thinking ” F*** this !! ” & forever give up on women. I think media programming has a huge impact on women’s mostly negative view of men.

        Reply

        • Unfortunately, it’s a small minority of women who feel that way.

          FWIW, media portrayals have been changing in recent years. There are indeed a LOT of anti-hero male leads in TV and movies, but oftentimes these days it’s equal opportunity evil/stupidity/etc.

          House of Cards is a great example.

          Reply

        • OSRHardHat

          That doesn’t really make sense when one considers that ambition in men is in large part driven by the desire to impress women.

          A man who is not trying to impress women will quickly learn how little it takes to get by and still recreate.

          I would think the owners would want men to think there was a reason for becoming a wage slave.

          Reply

          • I’m not discounting that many men work to achieve only to impress women, but rest assured there are PLENTY of purpose-driven men out there.

  36. Dennis

    you know, there are a lot of hot women out there. but there are also a lot of plain janes that are just as sexy and desirable. if you just step out of your shell and take a small chance and say something nice to that woman, you never know, she may need that at that point and time. she may bubble up, and have a conversation back. but if you the man dont take that chance i already know the end result youll get.you dont know, she may have just had some very bad news, and the least little thing that cost you absolutely nothing, may be the one thing she needed to right her ship. screw the feminists, if you want to tell a lady hello, or nice shoes, or what made you want to have blue hair, hell, say it, and say it like you own it.

    Reply

  37. Boyd

    Women paint on Yoga pants and jack up even a modest bust line to the point it’s exploding into your face … and then want to know what the heck are you looking at. Guys aren’t tire of looking at women, their tired of the mind games. Mind games that any more can even have legal consequences. 60′s feminism started this and it wont end till women make the move to abandon it and do what is natural – take pleasure from the lusty gazes of men.

    Reply

    • Fluffy

      I am 28 years old, female, I read all these comments and I get scared. Is this what you will tell your daughters? If a man is gazing at you and smirking, you have to be grateful? Be glad they all want to grab your butt, it is proof you are sexy. Be like the women in the porn movies, you surely get more attention. If not, you will surely break their heart.
      Again, feminism is BAD, and evil, the root of broken families, and we are all lesbians and man-hating creatures, just wanting your wallet. I rather want food than money, I love food, but that is a diffrent story. (everyting is better with bacon, joke…)
      My early life has been: you are ugly, fat, a monster. So, my childhood was not really great. Boys treated pretty girls like princesses while I was kicked, punched, spit at just because I was not pretty enough. Later, when I turned 20, men were hitting on me just for sex, of course. Because women are supposed to ‘enjoy’ the lusty gazes of men as stated here in a few comments. Naturally, flirting means sex, sex means population, but flirting is no sexism, it is no harrassment, it is not grabbing my breasts, legs, taking pictures from beneath my skirt.

      I was nearly raped by a man much older than me 8 years ago in Italy. I was always taught to be decent, to respect men, and to be happy if I get their attention. Finally, a man thinks I am pretty. He was giving me compliments, following me like a dog and I was never answering him because I was scared. I tried waving him away, speaking in my bad italian, because he would insit follwoing me around. He did not stop, whereever I went, he was walking next to me. Speaking tirelessly how pretty I was, and he was touching my neck, my legs, my arms..kissing my neck…I could cry even thinking about it right now, after 8 years. I was stiff, like a dead animal, not knowing what to do. I wanted to scream, to run away, but good manners won’t permit it. Remembering all the ‘good advises’: you will never find a man if you don’t smile back and allow them to approach you. You will never find a man if you don’t take any chances. You should not have high standards, just take what you get. How can any man please you if you do not give him a chance? This is how men are…’ This man tried to lure me away to a place where there were not many people, but I took him back to a public place, a café, because I knew my parents would come by (we were on vacation). Needless to say I cried out for help when they passed by, my dad nearly killed him. But what happend next, I will never forget. My dad told me: “I you are no virgin anymore, if you are pregnant, or if you have Aids, you are no longer my daughter.”
      Weeks after that he told me that I was not normal for not having a boyfriend, and that I should take the pill or else no boy would stay. If men had to wait for three weeks to get sex they would just leave. And if I could not find a man when I am 30 it would not be appropriate to look after men anymore.
      This is why I and many more women just don’t want men to gaze at us. It is a trap: if we you don’t gaze at us, we are ugly and worthless. Men only want sex, that is what they tell us right in our face. If we are pretty, will we be raped (on out dates?)? Needless to say, not all men are rapists, but meeting one rapist alone could change our life forever. I hope you understand that feminism is not about making men look bad, it is about telling women: if you don’t feel comfortable, you have the right to say no. If you put your toe out of the front door, it does not give any man the right to harrass you. If you are not in a flirty mode, if you do not seek companionship, it is your right to say NO.There are always crazy, selfish women who make feminists look bad, (I know some femi-nazis myself…my God) but please try to understand, that life is not always black and white, but grey.

      Reply

      • Fluffy

        oh yes, I wanted to tell you: english is not my native language. Forgive me if I did some mistakes.

        Reply

      • Well first, rest assured that the OP (me) has no such views of female sexuality. I believe in mutual respect, which is what this post is essentially about.

        Nevertheless, I am VERY aware of the reality of this quote from you: “…meeting one rapist alone could change our life forever”.

        I personally believe that that is what’s at the root of most of the angry videos that would seek to label all men who show any interest whatsoever as “rapey”, etc.

        I think it’s more about female anger than feminism per se. And no, they’re not synonymous.

        It’s unfortunate that you’ve had to endure the negative experiences you recounted. Please know that not all men are so predatory. I, for one, along with legions of our readers/subscribers stand for being part of the solution rather than the problem.

        We too detest the bad reputation caused by men with questionable intentions that we men of character have to live down every day of our lives.

        Reply

        • Fluffy

          Thank you for your answer,..
          I get called a feminist because I tell people what I just told you. That mutual respect is necessary. That we should work together as a team and that no gender is better than the other. I think you are correct; anger and fear are responsible for many evil things in this world.
          I think our society has done much for women but it left men without a clue. New life, new roles, but for who? What should we all be doing?

          We cannot continue like this. Many evil women get away because people are focussing on the ‘bad male’ who is responsible for all the crimes on this planet. And many men want us women back in our caves, preparing supper when the bold mammoth hunter comes home again…
          I think this world needs more than just pure education.
          This world needs an well needed appreciation of men. There will always be nutcases running around.
          But if we could show how important men are to us women, then maybe there would be less difficulties.
          Men get treated like rapists even before they have a chance to speak up.
          There are evil men, just as they are evil women. Women should admit that they need men in a positive way, that men are essential, wonderful human beings, filling our hearts with hope and courage since our childhood (dad is our first hero). Men are brave, they risk their lifes every day, think of their inventions that make our life so muich easier, there is more to them than a high sex drive and beard shaving…. there is something noble, almost sacred about them. Men need courage to expose their problems. Men are beaten, raped by women too, yet they seem to have no voice in our society.

          But telling this, women risk hearing some old phrases again: Hear that? These b’tches cannot live without us, they depend on us. We are the stronger sex, they should never have left the kitchen’ We should put them back to their place, in the bed, the kitchen and their homes. Because we are better at everything’ It sounds funny in some contexts, but sometimes it it is more than just a bad joke… it is taken too literally.

          Sexism works both ways. It knows no gender. It is just bad…and we have to work together to stop it. If less women were afraid of rapists and if less men would be afraid of being treated like a monster…who knows?

          Reply

  38. Sean

    I can sum up this little mystery for you, in one sentence. Most women are full of shit.

    Reply

  39. Gunther

    Personally, I look at women for maybe a few seconds and then, turn my eyes away from them since I have no intention of marrying them. I put up with verbal abuse from my mother for too many years and I will be damn if I have to put up with that from a wife.

    Nowadays, in my opinion, too many women don’t want men who are self-confident and who don’t put up with verbal abuse from women because it is a threat to women. Too many women just want to control men just like men used to control women.

    In the TV show Moonlighting, David Addison was a sexist pig; however, what I like about him was that he did not hesitate to argue with his boss Maddie Hayes and refuse to take any kind of scolding or verbal abuse from her. I love it when he walks out of her office and she would just yelled our in frustration because she knew that she could not mentally control Addison.

    Do I like Addison as a sexist male pig? No way. Do I like him when he stands up to a woman? Yes I do.

    Reply

    • Moonlighting was such a great show.

      But more importantly here, Gunther, I want to encourage you that not all women are like your mother. Just like all men aren’t “lying, cheating dogs who only want one thing”.

      I haven’t personally met many women who are turned on by lack of confidence in men. Remember, confidence is one of the “big four”…for good reason.

      Reply

      • Gunther

        Unfortunately, there is an old saying that the woman you marry is your mother.

        You have to admit that American society has done a very poor job of making men have confidence both at home and at the workplace. It is not just men alone who get their confidence knock down by women but it is also by other men particulary those men who are in positions of power like high ranking miliary officers and NCOs and CEOs.

        Reply

        • Forget “American society” then. Take back control of your own destiny.

          Reply

          • Gunther

            I am trying to take control of my destiny; however, that doesn’t answer or solve the problem of American society not producing self confidence men if this country wants to maintain its political, social, and eocnomic status in the world plus regenerating its population. This country has now one of the lowest birthrates in this country since 1935 because of the economic mess that was created by Corporate America and then the American ordinary man gets the blame for causing the mess in the first place plus being treated as second class citizens by an increasing number of sexist feminists no matter what age the men are. Men are also being treated as inferiors when you look at the increaing number of TV shows, movies, and fiction books that treated men as a bunch of idoits with no kind of intelligence

          • You bring up a great tangential discussion there.

            About seven years ago I was right there at the front of the pack denouncing how the media was portraying men as powerless buffoons. I have to be honest, however, in saying that there’s been a clear correction in that regard in the last couple of years or so. Nowadays the ridicule on TV seems more “equal opportunity”, and if I had to guess I’d say that has a LOT to do with the meteoric rise of reality TV. What you can say for “reality” is that the spotlight proves that both men and women will show their true colors if given the chance, and neither gender has the market cornered when it comes to vice OR virtue. Both genders shine on “The Voice” and both look ridiculous on “Bar Rescue” and “Hotel Impossible”.

            The correction in TV ads in particular interests me the most, however. Advertising of any type has to convert into sales numbers or else it’s not of any value to the advertiser. Clearly, man-bashing commercials just flat-out weren’t converting. Meanwhile, the “Jake from State Farm” commercial, for example, has been running frequently for well over a year now and it clearly features a woman looking pretty foolish, with the two guys in the spot remaining pretty much calm and collected.

            Ultimately, people acting dumb make for good TV, of course, but what you’re seeing more of is a healthier mix, at least in the US. As far as the UK goes, all bets are off still…although men making buffoons of themselves on stage has been the cornerstone of British humor since at least Gilbert and Sullivan (and perhaps Shakespeare) and that tradition is live and well in the form of shows like Peep Show, The IT Crowd and The Inbetweeners. Given that the likes of Rowan Atkinson and John Cleese have been willingly looking silly since long before this sort of discussion was ever de rigueur, they might get a “hall pass”. For many British bits, the deadpan woman (a la Fawlty Towers) has also been a mainstay. Weirdly, however, it’s always felt different than man-bashing US shows like, say, Everybody Loves Raymond. With British stuff, even nowadays, you get the perhaps ironic impression that men are actively claiming center-stage BY being silly.

      • Gunther

        Personally, I have met too many women who are turn off by men who have confidence in themselves because it means that women can not control such a man. That kind of man would not hestitate to argue with a woman and beat her at her own game of verbal confrontation. I have met too many women who hate it when a man beats them in a verbal arguement and are such sore losers and seek revenge on a self-confidence man. Trust me I have seen it and experience it.

        Reply

        • I can assure you that’s a small minority of women, though.

          Reply

          • Gunther

            According to the book Men on Strike, the women who abuse and misuse men are increasing every year so the minority will be the majority.

          • Burnt Flowers Fallen

            “I can assure you that’s a small minority of women, though.”

            Not true at all. Generally, women don’t like it too much when men stand up for themselves being man. Gunther is largely correct. They resent not being “right” even if they argue out of emotion or want to own an argument of it’s own sake. And if they don’t like you, no matter how confident you are, you will be treated closer to a pariah, or she will tell others that you are not dating material (and that’s the polite version).

            Women generally want “confident” men they can push around but that will still act with the trappings of superficial masculinity. They still want men to be a push over to their whims, not draw a line in the sand when things get too out of bounds. Scott, you don’t know the difference between real confident men who truly stick to their guns and ones that are still appeasing women at their expense, apparently. Women will often look for their latter because it benefits them over a partner.

          • It is absolutely true that it’s a small minority of women.

            Whether you guys like it or not, a LOT of you who are responding to this post are creating your own reality. Women are responding to you based on the pattern you set. Change how you lead and you’ll change the pattern of their response.

            You hit the nail on the head when you said “if they don’t like you”. That’s the difference maker. If you don’t give a rat’s ass whether women like you or not, or you do care but just can’t affect the desired result, then don’t be surprised when the pattern continues as you see it.

            But to project what you consistently encounter on others (e.g. me) as if it’s general reality for everyone is an arrogant mistake. The truth is I do indeed know the difference. You can assume I’m kidding myself all you want, but spend an afternoon with me and your assumptions would be challenged.

            Make no mistake: I’ve lived your reality in the past and have radically transformed it due to proactive mindset change and the behavioral modification to back it up. As such, your efforts to convince me of your position aren’t going to be all that effective.

          • Burnt Flowers Fallen

            “Whether you guys like it or not, a LOT of you who are responding to this post are creating your own reality. Women are responding to you based on the pattern you set.”

            Absolute rubbish.

            It’s a good amount of women, and if you believe otherwise it you are in denial. If you would stop placing the onus solely on men and realize what it’s like in the dating scene, you would waken to what’s happening.

          • But see, it’s a GOOD thing that the onus is on men. That proves we’ve got the power in the dating world, should we opt to be choosers instead of chasers.

            Only a victim’s mentality sees it otherwise.

          • Burnt Flowers Fallen

            “But to project what you consistently encounter on others (e.g. me) as if it’s general reality for everyone is an arrogant mistake. The truth is I do indeed know the difference. You can assume I’m kidding myself all you want, but spend an afternoon with me and your assumptions would be challenged.”

            I don’t need to spend and afternoon with you—I was quite a womanizer in the past.

            You refuse to see reality for it’s own sake, and admit that there is something wrong with the dating world and how women operate, then you are not as experienced as you claim.

          • I have no problem admitting that there is something wrong with the dating world. The biggest problem is called “narcissism”, followed closely by “bitterness”. A major indicator that one is affected by both is blaming the other gender.

            For what it’s worth, “womanizing” is not exactly synonymous with “successful with women”. “Womanizing” connotes misogynistic narcissism (which women typically find offensive), whereas true success with women is marked by happiness and mutual fulfillment. I do not teach men how to be womanizers, so again…your assumptions would be challenged were you to hang out with me.

          • Burnt Flowers Fallen

            “But see, it’s a GOOD thing that the onus is on men. That proves we’ve got the power in the dating world, should we opt to be choosers instead of chasers.
            Only a victim’s mentality sees it otherwise.”

            No, it doesn’t. Because you are shifting the responsibility onto men and avoiding the subject of doing the same with women.

            The fact of the matter is that you are setting up men to take the fall no matter what. What does that make you?

            But hey, if you want to play the role of the victim, let women have the power of choice while men struggle to get noticed. See how that’s worked out in the last several years—it hasn’t very well.

          • Your argument is replete with logical fallacy.

            I have not once said that women are not responsible for their own actions and that everything is men’s fault. They are, and so are we. Bitter, narcissistic and/or crazy women will be unsuccessful in their interactions with men and vice-versa.

            Nor can I see how empowering men is setting us up to be victims. Victimhood by definition is directly dependent upon being powerless. Your argument is tantamount to “I know you are, but what am I.”

  40. Gunther

    Another reason why men don’t noticed women anymore is because of all the good paying jobs gone overseas or corporations bringing in cheaper labor to take American jobs, men can’t afford to wine and dine women anymore. Dating costs money and you can’t do that even on minimum wage anymore.

    Furthermore, going to college just to get even a good paying blue collar job is expensive and so are private vocational schools.

    Women are kind of like goods and services in this country: Only the upper middle class and rich people can afford to have them.

    Reply

  41. Ron

    Many men do get rejected by a woman they would really like to meet, and most women nowadays are looking for men with money. Years ago, many women Accepted a man for who he was since money was never an issue.

    Reply

    • Fluffy

      I guess it has alot to do with familiy values. Often little girls are taught to find a good husband who has a good job and brings home alot of money so he can look after her. Money seems to be the key. It is something we have earned from history, when a woman’s survival was linked to marriage. If the future husband was broke…well, things did not look good. Nowadays many uneducated girls, or should I call them brats?, want to find a rich guy and live a life à la Paris Hilton. Just need to look good, doing nothing at all, except for shopping. I am surely looking for a man with a job, but I don’t care how much he earns. I earn my own money, why should I care about his? I don’t need luxury, I love food. I want to be fed ^^ a few times a day. I am like Homer Simpson when it comes to food. Jewels don’t melt my heart, but try with a good dish, hmmmm

      Reply

  42. Gunther

    The trouble is that the number of men who have money in the the USA due to the shipping of jobs being sent overseas is shrinking every year so women are going to have fierce competition among each other in getting a guy with money and the guys with money can be choosey of who they want to marry and if they don’t like their wives, they can always look for a new wife and leave his present wife in the poor house unless she has a good lawyer get a nice settlement from the husband.

    Reply

    • Yet, I know LOTS of rich guys who are dateless. There’s more to it than that.

      Reply

      • Gunther

        But it hasn’t stop guys like Senator McCain, Senator Newt Gringrich and former Governor of California Pete Wilson from looking for a new wife and filing for divorce when they find out that their spouse has a life-threatening illness and they don’t want to pay for expensive medical care with their life savings when they could have enact Affordable Medical care a long time ago.

        Reply

  43. Karl-Johan

    This was a very interesting read, and I believe that your observation is true, aswell as the three main reasons you present.

    I used to never give compliments or acknowledge women in public until this thing happened. I was in line to the toilet when out of the ladies room stepped a bridesmaid (wedding happening nearby), and I realised my default of disregarding women was actually not neutral but ill-mannered.
    So I said it: “You look absolutely stunning!” and she practically melted. From her reaction it was obvious to me that this is not something people do much today.

    I think, perhaps it just doesn’t do it anymore to find relationships by striking up conversations with random strangers (for most people). But even so, should this mean that we have to turn into uncharitable antisocial “bubble people”?
    And for the guys who take the ball(s) and go home because they had a negative reception…
    Did you say those things because you hoped something would come of it? Why not try it again with no other intent than being charitable. Heck, practice complimenting guys aswell so it’s not one-sided.

    And if you actually, through no fault of your own, came across a really rude woman, why would you alter your behavior because of her?
    It means she wins, and that you passively “punish” everyone else for it.

    Reply

  44. Von HardWiggs

    My Country is a hot spot for tourists because of how beautiful it is and because of the wonderful beaches and weather. My college has thousands upon thousands of beautiful women from Germany, Sweden, Italy, France, Portugal and so on.

    There are only a handful of men. I honestly know every guy that goes to my college, at the very least by face, but I see so many different(new students) women, I can’t say that I see the same female faces everyday.

    Now, do I see men chase after women? No. Do I see men look at the beautiful women from foreign Countries? No.

    A few of these guys have girlfriends but most don’t. I am not an attractive man and yet I am looked at by several attractive women several times a day. They stare, they smile at me for no reason when entering the subway, if I look at women in college they stare back, even more intensively than I’ve ever seen teenager boys stare at teenager girls, I’ve even seen attractive women do a little victory dance for having a guy(that guy would be me) look at them.

    It does seem that the vast majority of women – including the most attractive- go about without getting attention from men, even if they are dressed-up(or almost undressed) to get men to come up to them.

    What’s wrong with men, then?

    Nothing.

    Way too many women are addicted to male attention. They want the attention from men but they would only consider dating the Thomas Rhett of the group. This also expands to average and below average women.

    Do I enjoy having women stare at me? Not really. It feels odd, if they are interested they can always approach. I don’t bite. To be stared at for so long for no reason at all makes a guy think there’s something off with the woman.

    Moving on to my next point… if the woman gives you the green light, you gotta date her, pay for those dates, take her out, pretend you are interested in what she has to say, you have to be approved by her girlfriends…

    Relationships are a lot of trouble.

    Relationships are expensive. Way too many women have herpes or HPV. Way too many women cheat on their boyfriends. I also have a job and I go to college, I don’t want another job, you know what I mean?

    Am I surrounded by women who are young and beautiful but somehow aren’t my physical type?

    Sure. I went to Germany for a year as an exchange student. I would see beautiful 6 feet tall natural blonde women everywhere. For the first week or so of attending class my eyes were all over the place looking at the ladies.

    But I soon grew bored with them and I lost interest.

    I very much prefer porn. Its free, I can see naked women without spending a cent/wasting time/effort, porn doesn’t have crazy ex-boyfriends, doesn’t have periods nor stds, doesn’t demand anything and doesn’t nag me, lol.

    Do I need women to have babies with? Sure I do. Why would I want to be stuck for 18 years paying child-support, though?

    I don’t know, mister. My Country is a hub for very beautiful women. I have the normal sex drive for a young man.

    I am completely heterosexual. There is one girl in my class I find to be rather enchanting and beautiful, but its far less troublesome to just stare at her. She stares back, but she won’t approach me, which probably means she has boyfriend. Yet, even if she doesn’t have a boyfriend I’ll rather just look – its for free lol.

    Reply

    • You know, I’ve heard from many men with your point-of-view. It’s hard to argue with, especially if you’re just about sex rather than relationship. Even more so if you’ve had a string of negative experiences with real, live women (although you’re not exactly saying that applies to you). The plain truth is that you can click from one porn scene to the next, all for free and in HD. If you get bored with one woman, your next “partner” is seconds away. And you don’t even have to make any effort to “have” her.

      I do, however, believe that there’s much more to solid male/female relationships than sex. That’s the kicker for me.

      Reply

  45. Von HardWiggs

    ”But do we need to “have” them all? What ever happened to simple appreciation/admiration?”

    Because I’m not an object to be used. I don’t exist to validate someone’s looks or existence. I don’t like to be used and there are many ways for a person to be used, one of those ways of being used is by feeding the woman’s ego. She gets her self-esteem high. What do I get? Nothing in return. Do I feel validated when women ”notice” me?

    Nope. I know its a combination of my Country having very few males, few of those males are either old, married, casanovas or homosexuals, and most of the women out there don’t have a boyfriend. I’m a human being. Lets theorize that the women are genuinely attracted to me? Does that possibility get my ego high, does it increase my self-esteem? Not really.

    My self-esteem does increase when I ace the exams most other people fail, or when my boss congratulates me on a job well-done.

    Reply

  46. John

    Men don’t look at women or give any attention because it is mostly unwelcome. This is the truth, and it’s not in my head. It’s what women have been taught, and I’m pretty sure this is part of feminism. Go to any non-western country, and this won’t be the case.

    Reply

    • John, I PROMISE you that much of it has to do with how you lead as a man. Women who treat any attention from someone male as hostile are in the slim minority.

      Reply

      • Anonymous

        I have to say, I truly disagree with the idea that just because you have a penis then you are The Leader or The Boss. I already have one of those, I want a partner. No one is in charge unless they earn the right, and that would be a daily challenge. I don’t need a leash, I don’t need to be led. The first time some guy took notice of me he casually remarked to his friend that I would be a good lay. He was 40 something, I was 13. I’ve been in the military and have multiple degrees. I’ve been hit on by service men, sergeants, supervisors and professors. I’m now old enough that I’m invisible to guys and I much prefer it. No one should have to be responsible for someone else’s desires. You want to get laid? No problem. You want me to have to deal with your wants? Problem. Don’t look at me. Now before you come to the conclusion that I’m a screeching harpy shrew, nothing could be further from the truth. My coworkers, friends, and yes, long term relationship would tell you that I’m just a private person. And I don’t appreciate males taking some de facto lead because they want it and think they deserve it just because. As far as the “notice “? If you look, deal with the consequences. If someone senses your agenda? Deal with the consequences. For most women it isn’t that they’ve been seen, it’s the accompanying agenda.

        Reply

        • Ms. Anonymous, it’s regrettable that you’ve had enough bad experiences with men that you’ve grown so bitter. I mean that honestly. It really hurts, I’m sure.

          What you may not know about me is that my life was virtually ruined by my first wife. That could very easily have influenced me to feel very negatively toward all women.

          But I have to tell you, the first step for ANY human (male or female) is not to grant those who’ve done us wrong in the past the superpower of affecting us in such a deeply negative way.

          My comment you’ve responded with such energy to does not imply any endorsement of being “The Boss”. Rather, it’s to say that the attitude a man brings to the table in the specific situation discussed here will almost ALWAYS influence how the woman will respond. And RIGHTLY so, I might add.

          Now, that said, I am absolutely, positively on record as believing very strongly that women will NOT respect or be sexually attracted to any man who lacks leadership.

          Even women with tons of confidence and personal power who I’ve talked to express flat-out disgust when, for example, men pick them up for dates and ask them where they want to go.

          My wish for you would be that somehow you find it in your heart to realize that there are kind hearted people and black hearted people of BOTH genders.

          It’s not “us vs. them”. The guy who smiles warmly and greets you may very well have honorable intentions.

          He doesn’t deserve unconditional disrespect any more than a virtuous woman would deserve mine.

          Reply

          • Roberto

            Going back to the comments made about women with tons of confidence being disgusted with guys asking them what they would like to do on a date. So, they’re disgusted with guys having the courtesy to get their input on what they would like to do? What if you remain silent and just take them somewhere that they may detest? Is this an indication of the “leadership” that you preach of so often? It’s hard to envision a more disastrous situation than making a bad call by taking a date to somewhere boring or uninteresting without any imput just to demonstrate this magical leadership that you continuously emphasize. I can’t imagine how a woman would be enthusiastic about going on a 2nd date after a mediocre 1st date with “Mr. Leadership.”

          • Nope. You’re thinking like a rookie.

            There’s skill involved here, and it’s called LISTENING. You know how women harp so much on finding a man who “listens” to them? It’s not because they want to boss them around. It’s because if you LISTEN to her and take mental notes, then you’ll know what her hopes, fears, dreams and delights are. THEN you come off like the hero you should when you plan miraculously amazing dates that seem to her like you read her mind.

            You really should get on my newsletter. This is a regular theme.

  47. just a dude

    It seems the writer assumes the only way to meet females is through cold approaching. Another method, perhaps over looked is through mutual friends. People that use this method have a high rate or hope of reciprocity since the mutual friend can vouch for some of their character. Its like going to get a platinum credit card with no credit history when you cold approach. How many banks are dumb enough to trust a stranger to pay them back?

    As for myself i stopped trying because i admitted and accepted i am unattractive. When i was ignorant to this fact i was trying all the time. 22 never had even a kiss. Finally Before i came to my conclusion. A girl showed interest in me. I messed up and ended up pushing her away. She didn’t even say bye. It hurt so much. Not her leaving but, me pushing someone to behave that way. I am ashamed to have ever made the mistake. I remember the last night i saw her as she left. didn’t even look in my direction bro. I sat in my car and cried like a baby for a good 10 Minutes. That night i vowed to never put a girl in that situation again.

    For the next few months i changed big time. Then i made a choice i won’t type. After this choice girls naturally gravitated towards me. Cause i stopped caring. I was solely friendly. It was funny. Hilarious. I even started hearing rumors of girls always talking about me. When i denied that could be true they said i seemed to never focus on girls so i wouldn’t know. Funny stuff. I faked happiness all the time and they kept coming. I guess its cause i acted positive, placed no demands on them, and never made the conversation about me.

    So, now that i don’t try apparently im a great guy. Some people just aren’t meant to have a SO. Im glad i found out at 22 so i didn’t waste the rest of my life chasing fantasies. Learn every day. Apply. Learn more. die. awesome life.

    Reply

    • Quote: “It seems the writer assumes the only way to meet females is through cold approaching.”

      That impression is given largely because of the focus of this piece, I suppose. If you dig into my other work you’ll quickly find that I address a myriad of other ways to meet women. I personally met my wife Emily online, so that’s a significant area of focus around here as well.

      Reply

  48. Insidious_Sid

    When I walk down the streets or through the markets and shopping malls, I wonder which females are the hard-core man-hating feminists. You see, I would rather scrape out my eyeballs with a rusty fork than give any single feminist the satisfaction of even glancing at her so she can call me an eye-raping misogynistic pig. Instead, I can go home and stare at her sex-positive porn-star sisters who grace pretty much every other page on the internet.

    I love sex-positive feminists and “hook up” culture. Feminism rocks!! Why buy the cow when you can get all this free milk?! Woo hoo!

    Reply

    • (Well, ladies…there’s another +1 for porn vs. real women.)

      Sid, the good news is that the man-haters are actually the minority. Your chances are actually pretty good of meeting a friendly one. We’ve actually NEVER had a negative/abusive reaction from ANY woman on ANY Ten-Plus Live weekend we’ve ever done. Again, I really think it comes down to how we as guys lead.

      Nevertheless, your comment is PARTICULARLY interesting to me because you’re yet another guy who’s ready to throw in the towel thinking ALL women are like those in the “street harassment” videos.

      Ultimately, I don’t think the purveyors of that message have thought through their end-game very well. After all, with as much as they apparently fear bad guys, who’s going to step in and protect them if they end up alienating ALL OF US…even the would-be heros amongst us? Now that’s a sobering thought.

      Reply

      • OSRHardHat

        What he said is that a man can’t tell from looking and that he’s lothe to give a vile creature the satisfaction of validation that she can use to insult and belittle.

        His statement brings us to the crux of the issue at hand, on the macro level, women must beat back these harpies if they want men to think of them as worthy of potential relationship and I’m not just talking about romantically.

        We all know who poisoned the well and we should realize whose burden it is to clear it.

        Reply

        • I don’t believe such generalizations are fair to the good women out there who don’t hate men.

          It’s no different than a good man being generalized as a “dog” or a liar by a woman who has had bad experiences elsewhere. Am I supposed to go clean up the bad apples before I can expect any woman to treat me right?

          Nonsense.

          It’s up to each of us as individuals to have the right attitude, and if we encounter a woman who doesn’t to heck with her.

          It’s not something we should take personally if it’s her problem. If our self-esteem and/or egos can’t take that, it becomes OUR problem.

          But again…I haven’t had a woman treat me poorly in years and years. And I’ve never had it happen to any guy I’ve ever been in field with in ten years.

          Reply

          • Mickey

            Again, when a guy meets with such hostility on a regular basis, sometimes through no fault of his own, he gets to the point where he just doesn’t care anymore and stops trying. You say that there are many women who genuinely like men. Assuming that’s true, there are also many guys who’ve been browbeaten away from trying to find that needle in the proverbial 10,000 foot haystack.

          • See, here again…it’s all women’s fault and none of your own. That makes you a victim because you’re choosing to be powerless.

            I can assure you that most women out there genuinely like men. But if you assume that NONE of them do, then all the ones who do will avoid you like the plague. Why should anyone–male or female–who likes and respects MOTOS (members of the other sex) choose to be with someone who doesn’t? They deserve better than that, and they know it.

            This is why the mindset of liking women and assuming the best from them reaps all the benefits. People who think all MOTOS are no darned good only get trampled under foot and used by the bad ones. After all, what remorse is there in besmirching those who don’t like you anyway? People of low character simply rationalize their own bad behavior by saying, “they had it coming”.

          • OSRHardHat

            Well the topic is the messed up state of affairs, is it not? YOU wrote a blog post about men not even bothering with women, right?

            This is what I’m addressing.

            As to the ‘creeper’ question, I absolutely believe it’s fundamentally about male desirability and I further believe that we do our gender a disservice when we legitimize the term.

          • Yes, I wrote the blog post. But I did so because I’m appalled and flabbergasted, not because I’m impressed. This blog post was not meant to be a “rah-rah” speech, but rather quite the opposite.

            I have no idea what “legitimize the term” even means, as to me creepy is what creepy does. It seems pretty cut and dried. Just sayin’.

  49. Omega Man

    My entire 20s were a disaster for me. I had a number of “nuclear rejections” early on which so affected me that I literally did not look at nor approach a woman for an entire decade. Mine is probably an extreme case, but I had literally given up hope and during that time, made no effort to approach the ladies at all.

    When I hit 30 I knew I had to do something or I would be single for the rest of my life and fortunately, I met my wife at the one party I did go to. The secret, as I later learned was to not give a “F…” about meeting someone and to just not be nervous. If something is going to happen then it will happen, if not then nothing lost.

    What really annoyed me however was after I became engaged, women would start hitting on me, even in front of my fiance. I could barely conceal my contempt and really had to control myself to avoid telling these women to F… Off.

    Reply

    • anonymous

      Guess you gained the self-confidence of someone who knows he has a mate along with the allure of being forbidden fruit to those desperate women.

      Reply

    • Athirson

      The first paragraph you wrote describes me as well. I underwent a similar transformation in my late 20s as well. In my case, it wasn’t so much a change in attitude as it was acquiring a powerful, lucrative white-collar gig that, more than anything else, attracts women like moths to a light. I was eventually able to settle into a stable LTR of more than 25 years’ duration. But I think along the same lines as you and the OP. Things should not be the way they are, and I think that MGTOW, which is rapidly reaching critical mass as a social movement, is an entirely predictable, if lamentable, reaction to the third-wave feminism that has poisoned the well for everybody

      Reply

  50. BestAnswer

    Can you imagine if these women today ever had to Work as hard as the women did back then since they would’ve been in a lot of Trouble, especially with their False Eyelashes And Fake Fingernails that many of them have today.

    Reply

  51. DJ

    Because if you’re a man you will soon find out that staring at women doesn’t work for the most part. It mostly just freaks them out when some random guy starts staring at them from a distance and makes women think you’re ‘thirsty’ and then usually when the guy starts to talk or say something even if it’s polite the girl’s initial reaction is disdain or that she wants to be left alone. The rest of the time it’s a polite conversation and then “bye”. Usually girls feel threatened, harrassed or like you’re trying to solicit them in that situation. Then the girl complains on facebook about being hit up by another ‘thirsty guy’. The only time men with any experience and intelligence ever try to look at or approach women is in very specific situations and ways that don’t make the man appear thirsty or desperate…

    Reply

    • I think we can agree that there’s a big difference between “staring” and “noticing”.

      Reply

      • laney

        Interesting, the difference between staring and noticing as you mentioned Scot. My question is: Is a man being disrespectful if he “stares” at other women when he is with his wife/girlfriend? Noticing is one thing and both men and women do this naturally, but I am speaking of actually staring…interested in your opinion on how you view this coming from a man as a relationship coach.

        Reply

      • Akagi

        The difference between being perceived as being creepy or smooth lies in how desirable your appearance is. If you look like Brad Pitt – it’s smooth. If you look like Steve Buscemi – it’s creepy.

        Reply

  52. That’s a sharp way of thnkiing about it.

    Reply

  53. Maurice

    I think that the major ethical upshot of feminism in this country can be reduced to something very innocuous and positive: Context matters.

    One should assume that anyone worth approaching has a full and interesting life. And so when you see someone shopping or walking down the street or commuting to work or grabbing a coffee in the coffee shop, you should assume that they are busy with their lives and probably don’t want to be approached or bothered. The time and place for cold approaches would be in social scenarios: mixers, parties, pick up bars etc. I think most intelligent men know this and act accordingly. Men who cold approach women in inappropriate contexts are all but revealing themselves to being unintelligent. Which is why such approaches lead most often to rejections.

    So yes, if you cold approach a woman while she’s just trying to live her life or go about her day, then you probably will seem creepy or at the very least presumptuous. Because to do so presumes that she wants to hear from you while she’s trying to live her life. Save it for social situations. That’s what intelligent men do.

    Reply

  54. Adam

    If your a guy, avoid marriage like it was the black plague. If she says why, just say “No hymen; no diamond.” She will throw a tantrum; they usuallly do. Just say no; let her leave (or you leave) and keep your freedom, financial security, and happiness.

    Reply

  55. John

    Bottom line is women are just awful, AWFUL people and are conditioned to be so by society. They are taught from a young age they are victims of a patriarchal world and anything they do to men is thus justified.

    Reply

    • Anonymous

      Right. And you aren’t at all playing the victim card here. Perhaps pull your head out of your hypocrisy before denouncement proceeds.

      Reply

  56. An evolved human

    Great post Scott. Number 1 and 3 are definite things that stop me from looking at women or even so talking to them. But I noticed other things developed into feeling here. Mostly cause Im tired of it always being the mans fault she didnt get her way. The mans fault shes like that. The mans fault he sucks at sex an so fourt. I think I’m literally done with women. They dont even turn me on, let alone I dont even think about them anymore. I realize my life is better without the drama and them. Im done fishing. Im just gonna enjoy myself and my life being asexual. Peace to all!

    Reply

  57. Reformed Nice Guy

    Women can be divided into three basic categories: Man-hater, gold-digger and slut. Sure, there are others but they’re so sporadic that they aren’t even worth mentioning. If she isn’t wearing a shirt that says “I bathe in male tears” or wearing tacky amounts of jewelry and makeup then she’s most likely tumbling in and out of the beds of every “bad boy” she meets. We’ve been told for so long that we’re violent, aggressive, amoral, lecherous and generally superfluous that we’re starting to take heed. We don’t want to be called “creepy” or “rapey” by some or end up with a disease so we ignore them altogether. Do an objective analysis of the benefits of porn vs. real women. The results will surprise you.
    MGTOW for life!

    Reply

  58. Insidious_Sid

    Feminism has convinced women it’s still okay to spend thousands on make up and clothes to look nice, and if a WOMAN notices or comments, it’s okay, but if a MAN does it, it’s a crime and rape whistles start going off. Women can thank their retarded “feminists sisters” for making it a crime to simply appreciate a woman who took time to look and dress nice. I am not talking unwanted touch or street harassment or “smile more baby” crap. I am talking about NORMAL men who are now afraid to approach women AT ALL because of the damage harpies and their feminism has done to the NORMAL social interaction that NORMAL people used to like to do. If women want to get appreciated more, or noticed more, or enjoy any of THEIR privileges from days gone by (being approached by men who take the risk in social interaction), maybe they should rethink feminism and how much they are letting it change the very fabric of society. It’s gotten so bad I can *FEEL* women looking at me – as if to invite my attention, and I wholeheartedly IGNORE THEM. Sorry, it’s not worth the risk. Women are going to have to start risking rejection themselves, and start speaking to men, because men have been taught that it’s “rapey” and “creepy” to approach women. Well, we all know that WANTED attention is never rapey OR creepy – only unwanted attention, and we really can’t know that going in, can we ladies? (Spare me the intuition and body language and social cues crap. We men take the risk, ladies do not.)

    Reply

  59. Connor

    I ignore them daily and used to feel bad about it as a teen. I soon realized that most women flirt purely for validation, and I refuse to feed them. It doesn’t help that I’m tall, deep voice. Nothing shakes them more than a tall, focused man paying them no attention whatsoever. They will literally follow me through grocery stores, some will pantomime helplessness (‘I can’t reach this’) but I only help when they directly ask. Women are slowly learning that all men are not interested in catering to them…and some of us find their ‘look at me, validate me, all while my boyfriend’s back is turned’ antics laughable.

    Reply

  60. HonestlySpeaking

    Well with the type of women that are out there these days, you can just forget about it.

    Reply

  61. AnotherMan

    Please delete my first post. Sorry, my tablet got screwy trying to edit….

    Anyway, Wow! I just stumbled upon this blog post while pondering this very subject. I have definitely FELT the absolute change in social behavior between men and women as I have gotten older. As real interaction drops, virtual interaction steps in to put a band aid on the problem. Instead of men and women meeting at work, in the gym, or out and about they end up sad and empty people questioning their worth living lonely lives. Many rely on social media to feed that sense of value and dating platforms like Tinder, Plenty of Fish, and OK Qupid, to find companionship. Sorry, but WTF? Have we regressed?

    Personally, I notice attractive women as soon as their silhoette enters my vision, and when my brain sees a certain type of beauty it can literally make my heart beat faster. I am always amazed at that. Nothing else on this planet can do that to me except the simple site of a beautiful women.

    Sadly, what has been brought up here seems true and I think a lot of great points have been made. On the other hand, I am so happy its not just me thinking about this terrible wedge growing between the sexes. Femenism has for sure changed how men behave, in some ways its good but in others not so much and some behaviors are missed by the very women supporting “man hating” reteric. Like others here I have trained myself to go way out of my way to not offend women by getting caught looking, leading them to think I am interested with body language, a smile or giving them a longer gaze. I feel as though to not be considered a creep you must treat women as if they were nothing to you. And, you must act as if they have no female meaning or “beyong aquaintance” feelings to win over. You have to ignore the fact that they are women and pretend that the hottie you see or are speaking to at the grocery store is basically a non sexual anything. Just an object really, not a beautiful women. Hmmmmmm?

    Reply

  62. John

    It is not safe to be in a relationship with a woman. They can’t be trusted, they’ll use and manipulate you, they’ll take your children, they’ll take your property. They use sex to manipulate men, and men aren’t having it anymore. Just read all the blogs about women crying because their husbands don’t initiate anymore. It seems the men are tired of being jerked around and manipulated, and they’ve made the sensible decision to stop asking for sex. Women are no longer attractive to men. They are selfish, spoiled, entitled, narcissistic babies. Ladies if your man is using porn, you need to ask youself why that website is more attractive than you (and yes, it is). The website won’t emasculate and humiliate him, and it’s a lot cheaper. Goodbye ladies; it’s so much better without you. I hope you enjoy this world you’ve created.

    Reply

  63. anonymos

    I am a decent looking, educated man that works out regularly and prefers to live a healthy lifestyle. I have a good job and am well mannered and i open doors for people and speak to elderly with respect.

    I was bullied by women when i was younger. I was slapped around in the back of the bus for many occasions. My first GF cheated on me. Ever since then i am always careful about what women i let close to me. I have dated at least 50-100 women (casual dates) and only one of them i would ever consider being with. Women want to have all the rights as men do and be able to have a fair shake in the working world. I agree that they should have and do deserve all the rights we do as men. But, when they are able to work and make the same amount of money (and sometimes more) they still want to find a guy who makes alot of money and has confidence and is an asshole and is this and that and only eats this and does this to impress her mother and all this and even stay at their beck and call 24/7. This is unfair, i dont see the equality in this . I feel women take advantage of their looks and situation whenever possible. Women always try to push themselves in front of me or scheme up some ways to try and get my attention, at the grocery store, on the road, everywhere. And im sick of it! Im sick of all the manginas out there who cater to these narcissistic attention wh*res , they are the enablers…Before they even say one word to me they are already accidentally pushing themselves into me or cutting in line or finding manipulative tactics to try and get me to talk to them. No way!! i wont give in ever!!because if that is their attitude most likely they will be even worse in a real relationship. Hey LADIES why dont you act normal and speak intelligently and respectfully to the man you want to speak to. I have gotten to the point where i cant stand women. I really am tired of their obnoxious ways and their inability to take responsibility for their actions. They have no honor, no respect no INTEGRITY. What value are they? Im done . I feel sorry for the girls that try to talk to me because i just ignore them completely as if i am deaf and cant hear.

    Reply

  64. Pragmatic

    I don’t look at women. I don’t share elevators with women unless there are other people present. I don’t talk to them unless in public and keep my conversations as business-like as possible.

    It only takes one false sexual harassment charge and your life and career are well and truly over.

    I’ve seen it happen to a good friend of mine and he said what really got to him in the end is not that she could charge him with sexual harassment without any evidence whatsoever (because it never happened) but that the entire system was hell-bent on supporting her in destroying him and that even his wife and most of his friends wouldn’t believe him.

    It took him 3-4 years to get some kind of semblance of a life back. He had to move cities, kiss most of his friends goodbye and can’t get himself to ever work with a woman again. *edit* It goes without saying him and his wife are divorced now (no kids thankfully)

    Perhaps it’s an unhealthy fear… but I’d rather stick my noodle in some plastic than risking going down the same path.

    I see more and more guys around me grasping at the same straw in the last years. It’s not a pretty picture but I don’t think this trend will be broken anytime soon.

    Reply

  65. Helena

    I am a quite attractive girl. I’m tall, slim and have a nice clear face and large boobs. I found that 10 years ago, when I was 18 or so, guys didn’t mind coming after girls and women in the street, it happened to me and my friends all the time. Now, I have noticed I barely get chatted up at all and I get stared at but that’s about all. No one approaches me any more. No one approaches my attractive, fun and generous single best friend either and she is frustrated and feels ugly. I am engaged luckily but she is single and feels like giving up on guys. I definitely think the unrealistic fake blonde big boobed girls in porn have dampened mens’ desires for real women with real boobs etc…very sad state of affairs.

    Reply

    • Hello Helena, and thanks for your comment.

      I personally believe that fewer of us as men are approaching you and your friend because of the perception that we’d either be “bothering” you at best, or worse…come off as predatory for even showing interest. This is what men are being conditioned to believe nowadays.

      Were you to research the most popular porn sites/videos you might be shocked to find that they feature rather “natural” looking women. Stats and numbers don’t lie.

      Reply

    • Kevin

      Scott is correct here , it’s NOT porn , despite it being so available. You can thank your fellow females for this , all this constant ” creep shaming ” & lot of these guys have probably been flamed by women just for looking in their general direction. Yes , guys should never ogle & invade personal space , but most women seem to give off a cold , hostile aura nowadays , so guys will simply keep well away from you ladies. Negative anti-male media influence plays a huge part in this sorry situation.

      Reply

  66. This is bullshit. People know their league. Women know how to find rich men, who know how to find them. People get laid in stealth but it’s obvious what the transaction is.

    Reply

  67. XYZZY

    I do notice them at times. But I’m often in my own world, focused on what I’m out and about for. When I do notice I’m far too shy to say much at all (if anything). If I do correspond with people I can bring the light (this includes especially laughs because I always have a remark, near instantly, for whatever is going on) regardless of the circumstances (this for male, female or both). But I’m not necessarily looking for chances to open. Even when I do it’ll be a genuine nice remark (not going out of my way) and once I’m done with what ever I might be doing (i.e. have to go) that is all there is to it. If I wasn’t shy, if I wasn’t so detached, I probably would engage more. But I am and the only thing that matters in the end is I don’t make another person have a bad day (if anything I likely will brighten it up a bit). I’m probably mostly oblivious to body language so that doesn’t help matters, I’m sure.

    Reply

  68. No Name

    I never had any positive reaction from women, even when I wasn’t chubby and ugly. I am not assertive not because I am afraid of rejection but because I now feel more like I’d be bothering women when trying to be assertive. No one wants a type of guy like me. I’ve made my piece with it xD

    Maybe most guys nowadays think the same but minus the ugly part. All those feminist slogans and harassment and rape laws make men think they are bothering women more then actually trying to start something with them, and with said rape and harassment laws at pretty much everywhere I find it less then weird that some people don’t bother.

    Just a theory though lol

    Reply

  69. Oh wel

    Until I see women create a campaign for men not noticing women, the same way women have created a campaign for men to stop approaching women on the street this is not an issue.

    There is no complaint about this on the womens side. So just move it along, no need to have a “solution looking for a problem” where there is none. Just keep it moving.

    Plus now they got Apps for that.

    Reply

    • Wow…another example of a prevailing opinion that only female opinions matter. Breathtaking.

      For what it’s worth, it’s only a small minority of women who want men to leave them alone. Unfortunately, it’s a very vocal minority that’s having a markedly deleterious effect on even well-meaning guys everywhere.

      As others have commented, guys are led to believe that they should leave all women alone, but then again they’re monsters if they do so and look at porn instead.

      To completely deny men the reality of our sexual needs is not only unreasonable, it’s flat out manipulative. It’s gone so far that I even hear from men whose wives have let themselves go to the point of sexual disgust, and then freak the hell out when they catch their man watching porn instead. It’s off to a 12-step “porn addiction” program for him, even as she withholds sex from him based on “principle”. And yes, the guy freely shoulders all the blame, all without even considering that virtually none of his needs have ever been met in the marriage…at all.

      Reply

    • Wow…another example of a prevailing opinion that only female opinions matter. Breathtaking.

      For what it’s worth, it’s only a small minority of women who want men to leave them alone. Unfortunately, it’s a very vocal minority that’s having a markedly deleterious effect on even well-meaning guys everywhere.

      As others have commented, guys are led to believe that they should leave all women alone, but then again they’re monsters if they do so and look at porn instead.

      To completely deny men the reality of our sexual needs is not only unreasonable, it’s flat out manipulative. It’s gone so far that I even hear from men whose wives have let themselves go to the point of sexual disgust, and then freak the hell out when they catch their man watching porn instead. It’s off to a 12-step “porn addiction” program for him, even as she withholds sex from him based on “principle”. And yes, the guy freely shoulders all the blame, all without even considering that virtually none of his needs have ever been met in the marriage…at all.

      Reply

      • Oh wel

        Its not that female opinions prevail but there is no massive complaint being filed on either side, men have found other things to do and even if women complain its more passive aggressive with this “Oh woe is me” attitude. so its a non-issue.
        While complaints about street harassment and creepy thirsty pickup artist go VIRAL!

        Deny mens sexual needs? I dont know what that had to do with my comment but come on, thats a very entitled attitude towards women. thats a personal problem that men can and do find alternative ways to solve.

        Reply

  70. sickofit

    I have been living in the US for 12 years and yes I have noticed that men don’t notice us or pretend they don’t. I have only have one boyfriend in all this time and I’m sorry to say I had to be the one going to him at first, otherwise that too wouldn’t have happened. In addition to the reasons listed here as to why I think men make sweeping generalizations before even talking to us and hearing us speak. This guy I was dating thought that I had lots of brothers and sisters just because I am hispanic and I don’t. He also called me a bad name later down the road and it was over really quick because I’m tired of them looking down on me. Every american guy I have dated is too passive and too relaxed in his little suburban environment with a golden retriever to bother doing the job of approaching and keeping women. Honestly they have been very mean too, verbally abusive from the start (when they aren’t ignoring you)

    People blaming feminism is part of the problem. Our need for financial independence and political rights is no reason why men should cower under a stone and suddenly just stop talking to us. What kind of twisted demented logic is that anyways? There’s a line between being prudent and careful of these so called harassment laws and going to ridiculous lengths that actually affect your dating life and chances of meeting a good person.

    And what I have been seeing lately is just pure ridiculousness, it’s like women have become invisible just for being women and trying to make their own lives. It feels as if an unfair punishment has been casted upon us also for being less than perfect and I too have started to ignore men as a consequence of a long prolonged state of suspension.

    I will not be doing your job. I will not call you, arrange dates, and try to engage you to keep your attention. This should be done equally and you should give a damn about starting talking to us first otherwise keep watching your porn and see if the erection last long enough for a second round of loneliness.

    Reply

    • John

      Sickofit – please read your own post and note the contradiction:

      “I will not be doing your job. I will not call you, arrange dates, and try to engage you to keep your attention. This should be done equally…”

      So which is it? Are you never, ever going to approach a man, call him, arrange a date, or try to keep him? Or should it be done equally? Which is it?

      Reply

  71. JMo

    Honestly I just don’t care. Modern women are vulgar and masculine in everything but their looks. They work men’s jobs, talk like men, have sex like men, swear like men, drink like men. They have little to no redeeming feminine qualities anymore. All they have to offer is sex, and putting in effort to get that is not even really worth it. I have to put in all the effort, going out of my way to be accomodating and pretending to be interested in what they are talking about, making sure to never say this and act this way and not this way and respond to this signal but ignore this test and to be aggressive but not too aggressive and funny but not grossly funny and be interested in sex but not too interested and try and be sensitive to her feelings without being a woman myself or a friend and blah blah blah and when we do get in bed I do all the work. And on the off chance I meet someone I’m compatible enough with to have a family I have to do the same crap year after year and only hope she doesn’t cut off sex or on a weekend whim decide she wants full custody of the kids and half my shit. Meh. I think I’d rather just jerk it to porn, and from what I can tell a lot of other men feel the exact same way. Its just not even worth the effort.

    Reply

  72. GRR

    Read this twice: if a the man of your dreams does not approach you, YOU ARE NOT AS ATTRACTIVE AS YOU THINK. It’s that simple.
    Approach anxiety isn’t as common in real life as
    The internet makes it out to be. Men, like women, do not approach unworthy women unless they’re just trying to get laid. Something women hate.
    I engage with and earn interest from women in cold approach conversations all the time. Mainly just to gage there personality. Haven’t found many worth asking out.
    Women are waiting for men like me to approach, but when I get there they have nothing to offer a relationship, or even a night out. Meanwhile these women are approached dozens of times a week without even realizing it because those men aren’t worthy of her.
    Being a self-titled Beauty is pretentious, and subjective. I know a hundred beatiful women at any given time, likely more beautiful than the girl in the story above. Doesn’t make them worthy of my time. All that other career nonsense girls like to throw around is inconsequential to men. We don’t care how successful you are. It adds no value to you. You are not a provider and therefor are only exclaiming that you have less time for a relationship than other women while simultaneously thumbing your nose at non-career women like they’ve done something wrong. Yet, those women are happily married and you’re going to die alone waiting for Prince Channing Tatum to sweep you off your feet.
    Women date up, so if you’re a 30 year old 10 making lots of money, your not going to find HIM. Men of power simply don’t need the baggage. They exchange 21 year old gfs until the money runs dry.
    Stop blaming porn. Blame your fat ass and or your contradicting standards. Men don’t think about sex all day, it has to be triggered by something that arouses them. You’re just not it. Most men can’t live up to your standards bs the ones that do, well, you don’t live up to theirs. Go ahead and look up how many women die alone and start looking around for a dumb dog that you can assert your control issues over.

    Reply

  73. Rigo Coreas

    Goodness,
    I am currently in a battle of regaining a grasp on my social life that was gradually eroded away.
    When I got on social media back in 05′ people were truly using things like Facebook to promote parties and events and PEOPLE went to them! But over the course of time I have noticed that my social and dating life have suffered immensely because now the chicks that I want to date, don’t wanna date but THEY SURE do wanna stay friends on all the social media platforms to stalk on me and make sure theyre in the know of my whereabouts yet when I message them, there is no reply. WHY WHY WHY? Why friend me on some stupid social media site like Facebook, twitter etc… when you don’t wanna talk?

    I got completely fed up and came to the strong realization that social media is NOT A NORMAL WAY of living life. It is not healthy in the end and quite honestly social media is anything but social. I deleted my Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram accounts and just kept my blog on WordPress and my Google+ account.

    Now I completely got rid of my need to watch pornography and masturbation.

    I feel like a regular person and now I feel that as a man, I can look at someone eye to eye and look for compliance and integrity. I am having great interactions with other people and they tell me that I am like an oasis in a desert full of shy people or whatever…everyone is too glued to their damn phones lol.

    Unfortunately, I tried the online dating again this morning and I’ve emailed like 40 girls simple messages about themselves, their lives, etc.. no one responded! In the past I would think, “Did I say something wrong?” now, I’m wondering what’s wrong with her.
    but I’m convinced that all genders in America are doomed unless we wake up and realize that we’re losing our ability to be a community….at the end of the day, this whole thing of dating and relationships is about community. Never forget that.

    The good thing is Scot, in the 6 months that I have been off social media, more and more people, particularly women are espousing the same opinions I believe in firmly. We need to get back to basics and stop being scared to talk up a stranger even if it’s just to get the time, ask for a cig or directions.

    I remember my favorite years growing up as a kid were from 1994-1998. People were fun then.

    Reply

    • G

      Go for you Rigo Coreas. I agree that we need to get back to basics. In Finland and Singapore, they have a high suicide rate because people are glue to their computers. I remember the 1960s where it was easy to approach people and talk to them.

      Reply

    • Kevin

      Rigo ,

      You make some damn good points here , the younger generations will have piss poor interpersonal skills. This plus the war against men has led to a chasm between the genders which will continue to grow at least in the near future. I will agree that most of the 90′s were fun , there were decent house / hardcore rave venues , with gorgeous loved up ladies..they did not have a bitch shield up & were easy to talk to. Nothing remotely like that now..no-one even goes out now !!

      Reply

  74. Joonas

    Oh I could probably write a book about this complex subject because there are many contributing factors in play here. Some of which you touch upon but many more that often escape public consciousness.

    Like one commentor before mentioned, I too study psychology myself. I’d say the three biggest factors are lacking cognitive/social development, excessive stimulus and burnout effect that follows from it and last but not least the subjective laws.

    They are all pretty self explanatory but I think subjective laws is probably the biggest of them all. It is not that men do not notice women but men ignore and force themselves to control their impulses because wrong moves could have very serious consequences and the subjective and unpredictable nature of these laws make it too toxic and hostile environment for social, not alone intimate interaction.

    It is not that men fear women. What men fear is what they can’t defend against which is the law. And while the intention of such social policies was sincere and protect women from certain aspects, the downside with any policy is that it is always away from somewhere else. And in this case it is from expressed pisitive attention.

    Just few years ago it was reported how Sweden has the worlds 2nd highest sexual assault rate but what was not reported was that the researchers and policy makers expanded the definition to be extremely subjective and vague. Once few get unknowingly and unjustly persecuted and all tbe following consequences, then the rest conclude that the only way to win is to not play at all.

    We are also starting to see how women are becoming more aggressive and recent studies accross the board show this worrying trend. Although it might be because of updated definitions to include femsle to male perpetrated crime and the rates being the same as always except exposed now or it could be that men are not having female to male agression either.

    Reply

    • Well, I did touch upon the whole idea of men having been brainwashed by sexual harassment seminars and the like. And you’re right to some degree, as many if not more guys fear “bothering” women than getting rejected by them nowadays.

      I also hear from guys who are extra careful on dates because they gravely fear getting physical with a woman only to have her cry “rape” later. If in any case the legally supportable definitions of sexual assault extend beyond the “no means no” boundary (e.g. “yes” in a certain context actually meant “no”, etc.) then the end of the world may be near [laughs]. Yet, I know there are isolated incidences where this sort of premise is imposed upon the courts, and unfortunately it often gets a lot of press when it happens.

      Reply

    • Well, I did touch upon the whole idea of men having been brainwashed by sexual harassment seminars and the like. And you’re right to some degree, as many if not more guys fear “bothering” women than getting rejected by them nowadays.

      I also hear from guys who are extra careful on dates because they gravely fear getting physical with a woman only to have her cry “rape” later. If in any case the legally supportable definitions of sexual assault extend beyond the “no means no” boundary (e.g. “yes” in a certain context actually meant “no”, etc.) then the end of the world may be near [laughs]. Yet, I know there are isolated incidences where this sort of premise is imposed upon the courts, and unfortunately it often gets a lot of press when it happens.

      Reply

  75. Thomas

    I am a good looking man, I love the gym, blah blah blah. I can’t think of a time a girl rejected me for a date. I completely stopped even looking at girls about a year plus ago.I get stared at by v women all day- I just quickly look at the ground. I have braod shoulders and a square jaw, and I think girls like that. But there is nothing good that can come v from a girl. Nothing. I work hard, make 90,000 now. But I jerk it to porn daily, if I want real sex I could call girls I know, but honestly im.just going to bavkpage next time. I wish there was a sweet girl I could meet to hold her hand and kiss and someone who had ny back- but that shit isnt here anymore.

    Reply

  76. Art

    The reason I’ve given up on approaching is that it reaps absolutely no benefits, and just gets tiring. I approach, close with the number, lo and behold no reply. Rinse and repeat a dozen times.
    I just can’t be bothered to be the only one putting in effort. Women expect us to approach, then can’t be bothered to at least say they’re not interested, rather they just pretend it never happened. Every time I get some sort of contact information, I can safely assume I’ll never hear from her again. My interest is dwindling and frankly, it’s just not worth putting yourself out there for someone who’s more than likely over-entitled and standoffish .

    Reply

    • Art, in all seriousness this sounds like a pattern of not successfully causing a woman to feel safe and comfortable in your presence. Rather than risk potential confrontation or discomfort in the moment, they comply with your request for your number but don’t return your calls/texts later.

      Reply

  77. John

    I will tell you why.

    I just stopped caring. being a “man” is a joke. I give up my time, my money to just jump through hoops to impress some child. I tried my hardest to be honorable and a good guy and what did they get me? Drama, games and non-stop bullshit. its always the same. Women all say they are one way when in reality they are the same game.

    When I actually think about it, I can’t even think of a single time in my 27 years that a woman was actually there for me. Not once. I was either a good time for them, or they were gone. I even gave up my chance to be a dad as I stood by my girls choice so she could go to school. She turned around and abused me for years with it. While I was depressed as she constantly rubbed it in my face she was off having a good time with other guys.

    And I quit caring. Now I have more money, great hobbies and finishing college. It’s funny, because now I treat women like they do me. Replaceable, entertainment. And all the drama, games are gone and I get laid twice as much.

    Funny right? The moment you stop giving a shit, stop listening to what they say then they want you.

    Reply

    • G

      “And I quit caring. Now I have more money, great hobbies and finishing college. It’s funny, because now I treat women like they do me. Replaceable, entertainment. And all the drama, games are gone and I get laid twice as much.”

      Good for you. Maybe we should legalized prostitution, then both men and women can get sex without worrying about trying to work for it.

      Reply

    • Saran

      You’re probably not hot or rich and you are chasing hot playboy type bimbos and expecting good results. If you chase the bimbo porno type what do you expect?

      Reply

      • G

        Too many women act indifference to men which is why many guys don’t want to deal with them and it is the women who keep flipping on the standards.

        Reply

        • Saran

          and men who are interesting and attractive enough keep chasing after playboy bimbos and rich women which is why other women don’t bother. Sorry to break it to you but if you don’t want a goldigger the women you want have to find you attractive, as vice versa.

          Reply

          • G

            Sorry to break it to you, but too many women are interested in being gold diggers which is one reason why men are not interested in marriage anymore.

          • I’d contend that truly interesting and attractive men aren’t likely “chasing” anyone, let alone bimbos. Those of either gender who have options are choosers rather than chasers.

            I’m always fascinated in conversations such as these by the assumption that all humans are innately corrupt, ill-meaning creatures bent on the destruction of MOTOs. In reality, however, the vast majority of people genuinely mean well. The biggest problem in the real world tends to be the celebration of selfishness in the context of relationships, often supported by mainstream dating advice. That phenomenon is not gender-specific, although I think some people need it to be in order to acquit their own viewpoint on the matter.

        • Saran

          once again, that is a function of the TYPE of women you and your buddies are chasing- Barbie dolls of all ethnic persuasions want money. simple. stop chasing porno and you might find a woman who isn’t a golddigger. Btw there are quite a few men out there who are chasing the buck as well. Sleazy Pathetic creatures they are, so it ain’t just women y’all

          Reply

          • G

            It is mostly the women that are sleazy creatures; otherwise, they would not be known as the deadlier of the two species.

          • Have you ever–even for a second–considered that female indifference toward you is something that you’re in control of rather than being victimized by?

          • XYZZY

            You two remind me of children forever bickering at each other about who is better than the other, as if each time you respond your friend will submit – and your crush will realise how admirable you (now) are (and agree to go out with you).

            Yet to any reasonable person it is rather sad that (I wish I was wrong if I’m not) two adults are acting this way online (men are pathetic; no, women are pathetic; women this, women that; men this, men that; other petty remarks ad infinitum). But don’t let me ruin your fun; I do not at all mean any offence – I am only sharing an observation.

            cheers (to the Americans who don’t know, cheers in this context means something else from what you might be familiar with; to briefly summarise it is a parting – I am not cheering you and I know my comments won’t change anything either way).

          • I’ve been signing my personal e-mails with “cheers” for years. I understand it as a combination of a valediction and a statement of gratitude.

          • XYZZY

            British: Expressing good wishes on parting or ending a conversation (as in “Cheers, see you later” – though in my case, with the two I responded to/about, it was more like “Cheers, won’t be seeing you”. That probably suits them just fine).

            But yes, there is also:
            Expressing gratitude or acknowledgement for something (the usage is Chiefly British).

            My usage was the first.

          • OSRHardHat

            Oh bollocks.

            You honestly believe men of any experience haven’t tried out different ‘types’ of women looking for the best partner?

            My experience is you’re all fundamentally the same, solipsistic and hypergamous.

          • AND…once again, your experience is based on your leadership.

            This isn’t gender specific, in any case. We all tend to attract EXACTLY who we expect to attract.

    • John, you hit the nail on the head when you described going to great lengths to impress women. I coach guys all the time who see the pattern you’re describing. The more you try to impress them, the less they respect you. Instead, the more you take control of your own dignity, the better your results.

      Reply

      • Saran

        Nope not true- if women ignore you it’s because you are aiming out of your league simple. You want the hot girl and then are surprised when she a)wants money or b) doesn’t want money but doesn’t find you attractive. Sorry it’s very simple same goes with women looking beyond their grasp.

        Reply

        • Okay, but we can agree that we as guys have some control over what “league” we’re in based on “big four” traits. Too many guys assume that a woman is “out of their league” without doing diddly to move up from Single A to the Majors.

          Reply

  78. Saran

    One word- gay. There are ALOT of gay men out there (both in and out of the closet). Maybe you are running into them, ever think of that? The only time I’ve seen the level of indifference that you speak of by men towards women, excuse me, attractive women, is if the men were gay.

    Porno is also an issue. Men who have their choice of women tend to have very very difficult to attain standards- they want whatever Hefner et al. have outlined women should look like- nothing else will do- they are MUCH meaner than most women when it comes to looks.

    Reply

  79. JustAnotherGuy

    Holy Smackdown! The conversation escalated quite a bit for a moment there. Just throwing in my 2 cents for whatever that’s worth in today’s economy.

    Though it’s difficult to articulate some experiences in a concise way, I’ll try. The whole “realm” of dating, hookups and meeting the opposite sex for something more than meaningless banter at the checkout line sucks for both sides.
    “In very different ways.”

    I, like other men out there, have just stopped caring due to the following mathematical formula.
    (100% effort + average guy = 0% success with desired match)

    The variable ‘desired match’ is the key. Someone above mentioned guys chasing bimbos or porn stars. Well, I think some guys do chase that fantasy. For me though, and maybe many other men, it’s just crazy difficult finding a women who actually takes care of themselves physically, and who isn’t exploring the world through the lives of many different sexual relationships. I think the term is “pincushion” eh hemmm

    Sadly, women who keep fit are limited in today’s society so they are like a rare element and thus competition is high to be with them.

    For some women, they seem to be hunting for mister right who is charming, chivalrous, mysterious, handsome, rich, intellectual, and sensitive all at the same time. Their downfall is the following formula.
    (0% effort + unicorns = getting used)

    I’ve seen this play out first hand. Some women are seriously used by men and treated as if they were nothing. Who knows why, maybe the guy stopped caring and has decided to lovem’ and leavem’ or maybe he was born that way. It’s all a big circle jerk regardless. Everyone is chasing an idea instead of what is real.

    All I know is that if more people in general would just shut the “blank” up, take care of themselves physically and stop being so PC, we’d all probably be getting laid more. Ahhh, what the heck do I know, I’m just a man!

    Reply

    • mickey

      “Sadly, women who keep fit are limited in today’s society so they are like a rare element and thus competition is high to be with them.”

      buddy, but there are women i’ve seen out there that do take care of themselves- competition? nope not really- guess it depends on what type of guy you speak of-or if going to the gym and dressing well are the only criteria. it’s a jungle out there, try new York or any major city- so many men in those places are social climbers, I’ve seen men pass over women for $$. I’ve even seen it played out where a man “broke up” with a girl (not attractive, but had $$ and connections) who was responsible for giving him work and paid attention to another one just to make her jealous so he could pull even more work out of her- ofcourse it worked. complicated out there man. in general you make some good points I guess.

      Reply

      • JustAnotherGuy

        I’ll start my reply the way most others seem to.
        Buddy, <– I completely understand that every person here is giving thoughts based on their perspective, relative experience, or comprehension of the subject. My comments are extremely limited and based on a single viewpoint from my perspective only, and though I don't care about being politically correct, I did not make them with the assumption my view was the only one. With that said, I have been to new york and there are a crazy amount of attractive women in that state! I've seen situations as you explained play out where a not so attractive guy with $$ or status can manipulate women who are attractive.

        I am definitely stuck with old time thinking and that ridiculous fantasy that who your with should want to be with you simply because of the person you are. I would hate to think that the only way my partner in life can stand to be with me is the thoughts of how big my house and bank account are. That would suck but it does seem to be the world we live in.

        Reply

        • If that’s a fantasy, then my wife and I live it every day. I can assure you it’s 100% real.

          Reply

        • mickey

          uh, no buddy, you misread- it was a man that was playing out that scenario- he was chasing $$ and the woman with $$ was not attractive. a douchebag or more precisely, just a gigolo. so yeah different scenario, but anyone basing their life decisions on who has money and who doesn’t, and uses people to make others (with money or connections because they are bending over for old men or women) jealous, is indeed a worthless POS as you may agree.

          Reply

  80. Saran

    hey why don’t you read- both are assholes buddy. Not just women or men, there are aholes in both genders. That’s egat I’ve been saying learn to READ. Male and female giggolos. Unbelieveable

    Reply

  81. Saran

    To xyz whatever the heck your name is – two words, reading comprehension- you really lack it and are surely in need of it. cheers you snotty a$$

    Reply

  82. G

    XYZZY.

    People bicker all the time whether on the Internet or face to face whether they are kids or adults so what is your point, since you can’t do a thing to stop to it.

    Reply

  83. Saran

    The point is your response was completely out of step with the responses- for example,one of the responders wasnt favoring one gender over the other, but you stated your case as if both were guilty of doing that, which was not the case; then you resorted to name calling, which further cements the argument above that you need to learn reading comprehension.
    cheers (the other kind)- see some people actually read responses before making asses of themselves.

    Reply

    • XYZZY

      Even though my original intention was to not respond, I never actually stated it as such. So I’ll respond this time to both of your replies.

      I’m aware that some here aren’t biased towards one or another. Funnily enough I’m one of them (reading comprehension? What’s that?). I didn’t state anyone was guilty of any thing – I actually suggested that what you two were doing reminded me of two kids bickering at each other over rubbish (which is pointless as G correctly points out to me though there is a subtle difference in our points). I never claimed you were doing X, Y or Z. Speaking of such: “To xyz whatever the heck your name is”. Amusing, really; G was able to repeat it (I suppose he copied and pasted – which would be the most time efficient [unless he is a fast typist] and easiest way – but it has well known meanings; still you couldn’t – or refused to – repeat it). Again, I ask what is reading comprehension?

      I didn’t call anyone names; you did, however, call me a snotty ass and you also suggested I was making an ass of myself. But I am fine with that (see below). Let me help you understand the flow of my observation (because I lack reading comprehension I must also not understand how to construct sentences – which means if I don’t explain my choice of words it is as good as gobbledegook):

      “You two REMIND me OF children forever BICKERING at each other about who is better than the other, AS IF each time you respond your friend will submit – and your crush will realise how admirable you (now) are (and agree to go out with you).”

      Observe the first three words aren’t “You two ARE”. Observe the words REMIND ME OF. It was a comparison. When someone is reminded of something, it doesn’t mean that that thing IS THAT something. It was an analogy and nothing else. I never suggested you or anyone else were doing one thing or another. I ask you one more time: what is reading comprehension?

      As for being an ass. I might be but I’m a proud one and one that recognises he has flaws but accepts them, adapts and improves himself constantly. You aren’t infallible either. I don’t really care that you called me names (but it is ironic with a certain amount of hypocrisy that you would suggest I lack reading comprehension then you suggest I was calling you names when I wasn’t – see above – but you were) because it actually amuses me. My sense of humour and ability to laugh is arguably my best attribute.

      Reply

      • mickey

        he doesn’t suggest it, man, you proved it. you don’t seem to take criticism well and sorry but you did not respond correctly nor do you comprehend much except your own gobbledook that comes out of your clap trap. but it doesn’t really matter in the narcissism you have enveloped your self with.

        Reply

        • XYZZY

          Let me put it in really simple words for you (first sentence is significant):

          They could have been arguing about whether I’m a tosser or not, and I would still be reminded of two kids arguing about [whatever]. I was making an analogy and given that I didn’t make any claims about them, reading comprehension is irrelevant. It’s not complicated. It was an opinion, something that (see the definition!) doesn’t necessarily require facts, evidence or anything of the sort.

          As for me being an ass? I’ve already admitted it. If someone has proof then it makes no difference to me – I would likely tell them what they were missing (best to be completely accurate).

          I already criticised myself yet you say I don’t like it? I criticise myself constantly. I also am very used to people criticising me. Much of it unjustified (that’s life, isn’t it) but a lot is justified, and I appreciate criticism as long as it is constructive (other criticism I just laugh at – indeed I am quite amused at this time). Then there is the claim of narcissism. Yes, I suppose that is true seeing as how I’ve said to people many times over the years, things like:

          “I am as valuable as fossilised rubbish.”

          “I hate myself.”

          “I’m not a good person.”

          And many other things like it (even when my mood is normal). While I don’t necessarily hate myself completely, I certainly used to. I don’t think I’m a terrible person but I certainly have some serious personality flaws.

          I am the extreme opposite of narcissistic. But I have no problem admitting my flaws (which you didn’t address – you don’t know me so you actually couldn’t be expected to) because they are part of me and recognising and admitting ones flaws is actually a strength.

          Reply

    • G

      You are the one that is making a donkey rear end of yourself.

      Reply

  84. mickey

    let me put it in very simple words for a mental midget such as yourself, U R a complete narcissist. cheers

    Reply

  85. August

    It’s simple. There are two kinds of men, nice and aggressive. The few that are aggressive don’t respect boundaries and so approach anytime. The greater majority of nice men, do respect boundries and therefore look for some form of invitation, a simple lingering smile, a second look, whatever. You see, while we have always thought that men make the first move, this is inaccurate, women do. In most all sexual species, the man stands at a distance, sometimes putting on a display, but always waiting for an invitation to approach. Women have become so trained to “play it cool” that they all seem caught up in their own lives and uninterested in finding a partner. The reason we don’t look closer, because we are still looking, is because no woman LOOKS AVAILABLE. Don’t believe me, try it. Try smiling at strangers and see the impact. I gave this advise to a woman I know and she caught herself a husband and thanked me for my good advise afterwards.

    Reply

  86. technical itch

    You know women today are so quick to label a man as a creeper or weirdo just by saying hi or just a quick smile walking by each other at the grocery store. It’s sad that he won’t approach her because of his fear of rejection fear of being labeled as a creeper. But no worries man because nowadays you really cant approach. She wants a 6ft, wealthy, gym rat, testosterone filled, ken doll face, tough but sensitive,alpha male, drives a chevy camaro Z28, type of guy. People keep chasing this “unicorn” and are really never satisfied. You just have to take a chance with “probability” out in public. Don’t go chasing for it. Enjoy life and perhaps you will run into her.

    Reply

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  88. White male CISS scum

    I guess MGTOW is working better then ever!

    Reply

  89. JJ

    Well, women have been feigning indifference towards men since the dawn of time by pretending not to notice men, refusing to pursue or initiate, basking in compliments received from men without reciprocating, playing hard-to-get, etc, etc, etc. Since women want equal rights it is only fitting that men treat women as women treat men. Ladies, you either want equality or you don’t, and true equality means you must accept the negatives right along with the positives. So now you get to experience the same “privileges” and “opportunities” that men have had all along. This means women now get to feel unnoticed and undesired. This means women now get to put their necks on the line and risk rejection and humiliation. This means women now get to wine and dine the opposite sex in the hope of proving yourselves worthy enough that men might give you the time of day. So ladies, isn’t equality wonderful? Isn’t it liberating and empowering? And just think, you can do anything men can do, only better! All together now, let‘s hear it: “I am WOMAN – hear me ROAR!”

    Reply

    • Ouch. There’s a lot of personal pain and bitterness in that statement, JJ. What you’ve described isn’t the experience of every man, and you can turn your ship around with a different mindset and a better grasp of masculine leadership.

      Show me a man waiting for women to “pursue and initiate” and I’ll show you man who misunderstands the male/female dance. The man’s initiative is a turn-on to women. Meanwhile, most every woman knows that to aggressively pursue a man is generally met with mistrust if not complete disdain by desirable men.

      Reply

      • JJ

        “Show me a man waiting for women to “pursue and initiate” and I’ll show you man who misunderstands the male/female dance.”

        Yes Scot, I agree 100%. I am not exactly holding my breath waiting for women to pursue and initiate – I am not that naïve. I was actually just poking some fun at the tendency of women to be all in favor of equal rights whenever it benefits them, but the moment it makes them feel awkward or uncomfortable (such as in dating/courtship situations) they want to go back to the old fashioned ways and play the demure babe-in-the-woods female card.
        But in all seriousness, women can run for President of the United States these days and no one even bats an eye. If women are capable, tough, and confident enough to be leaders of the free world (and for what it’s worth, I believe they are) then they should be resilient enough to risk their emotions and pride without fear of emotional devastation . Women really can’t have it both ways and expect to be taken seriously. I fully understand they don’t WANT to do things like pursue and initiate, but the fact is many men don’t want to do them either, but they have been forced to because of traditional gender roles, just as women were once forced to stay home and cook and clean because of traditional gender roles.
        As for the man’s initiative being a turn-on to women, again I agree 100%. Women love to be flattered, pursued and desired – it provides an exhilarating boost to their egos. In fact it’s what many women live for. But as far as women “aggressively” pursuing men is concerned, I suppose it all depends on what you mean by “aggressively”. If you are talking about a “Fatal Attraction” type of pursuit then I would agree, but I honestly don’t think most men would recoil in horror if women were to show a little more initiative and take a little more risk in such matters. But again, I’m not holding my breath waiting.

        Reply

        • leonard

          JJ – I do not think that you are very far from the mark.More and more guys ( myself included) just wait for the women to ask US out. I am delighted and I plan and pay for the date, as it is a REAL pleasure to know that SHE actually IS interested. Maybe I just cannot imagine the absolute horrible bargaining power and/or risk of being called a stalker or a creep,the other way around.

          Reply

          • But again…if we’re not willing to take the lead in those situations as MEN, then how can we reasonably expect women to “man up” and risk the rejection, bother, etc. that we’re unwilling to potentially face? It’s all about reading women’s attraction signals, subtle flirting and even blatant hints. You’re not a stalker or a creep for simply showing initial social interest. If any woman treats you that way under those circumstances, it’s her problem not yours. For the record, I personally haven’t encountered that scenario even once in my entire adult life.

      • Burnt Flowers Fallen

        “Meanwhile, most every woman knows that to aggressively pursue a man is generally met with mistrust if not complete disdain by desirable men.”

        Again, not exactly true. At all.

        It’s met with mistrust and maybe disdain if she has ulterior motives. And that can be the case, and I’ll let you guess those hidden motives for now.

        A good bulk of men have stated for years they don’t mind women going after them, approaching, them, flirting, and what not. Even if I’m not terribly interested in someone, I consider it flattering and a sign of (gasp!) confidence.

        If a woman is met with cold indifference from me, it’s because she’s probably at the bottom of the barrel on every level. I choose not to engage with someone who has literally nothing going for them. But typically, if a woman isn’t even someone I’d consider (but) decent, I find it a nice change. It’s happened at times. Many men do welcome it, and if you don’t realize this, you should ask them.

        Women don’t want to get this because they would risk rejection, and rejection hurts women more because they simply aren’t used to it like men. Men inure themselves to some extent and move on; many women have egos that cannot handle the fact a man would pass them up. It bothers them intensely because it states they are undesirable, and that can mangle someone like you wouldn’t believe.

        And as far as men not typically wanting to be approach/chased, why don’t you ask any celebrity? I’m sure those men aren’t exactly bothered by it, unless they feel that gold diggers are out to fleece them. Many men like the attention—I don’t know where you get your information, unless you’re projecting the idea that suits women and lets them be passive . . and not be responsible for taking initiative.

        This only promulgates the cycle of men having to take all the lead and women getting the upper hand in dating, but I digress.

        Reply

        • Perhaps some men relish being chased by women, but remember I qualified my statement by saying desirable men.

          The dynamic there is that desirable women don’t typically throw themselves at men, so the desirable man won’t settle for a woman he perceives to be undesirable.

          In other words, the psychological response to being “chased” in the dating world isn’t actually gender specific. It has everything to do with perceived desirability.

          To your other points, I think men and women are equally hurt by rejection. I don’t personally believe that most men are used to it by any means. I will concede that I believe women often don’t fully understand how much men are hurt by rejection, if only because they believe men are “strong and unemotional” by comparison to their own gender.

          Celebrity situations are atypical socially. The same girls who scream and go nuts when they see Justin Bieber usually know better than to do act that way toward the guy they like at school.

          Reply

  90. DissafectedWithDating

    Well… I guess I COULD do all those things that are mentioned in the article that women do not seem to get – attention, looking, maybe even trying to chat them up (while doing all of this without looking “creepy” and “rapey”, of course!), but… what is the point? I mean, seriously…

    I could look at them, but if I do and I do not get them in the end as I would not talk to them – why tease myself in the first place?

    If I look at them and talk to them, but I get rejected (over and over and over and over again – just like it has happened dozens of times to me and ALL my buddies, hence the probability of that happening being VERY VERY high), sometimes harshly, thus lowering my self-esteem dramatically – why do that to myself in the first place?

    If I do get a date from that desirable girl, I still need to entertain her, to try to be “interesting” to her and etc, but… even if I do that, VERY often the dates go nowhere. I tended to get second date out of 1 of 3-4 first dates (not sure if that is normal), and when girls do not give a second date, they usually tend to just leave you hanging in the unknown… And I usually get very confused and even a little sad. So, why to dissappoint myself?

    Alright, let’s say EVERYTHING is REALLY good – let’s say I date, we start living together, we “love” each other, we get marrie. So, in other words, good stuff. Still… the risk is VERY great that my wife would “suddenly” become not interested in sex, become VERY demanding (that I would earn more, help her more in domestic stuff, etc.), heck, become not attractive anymore by getting fat, wrinkly and ugly. Furthermore, the divorce risk is VERY high, too, meaning I would lose my children, my house, half if not more of my salary, my 401ks, and, most importantly, my dignity. So, having that in mind… Why? I mean, when people are marrying, nobody is planning to divorce and everybody is hoping for “happiness”… right?

    Having read all my comment, dear readers, could you answer me this: WHY would I even want to associate with women, or even look at them? I mean, most of them are quite unattractive. And I sore know that most of them find ME unattractive, so my efforts would be way too great for the results that I would be getting.

    I know what you are thinking: sex. Women can give me sex. And that is true. But that, however, has already been covered: I have invested a lot of money and I have bought a VERY realistic sex doll, called “RealDoll” (no, this is not an advertisement). She is so attractive that over 95% of women (including all ages) pale in comparison, to be honest. I am so satisfied with her and I have never been happier after I quit chasing tail altogether.

    MGTOW, guys, MGTOW 4 ever!!

    Reply

    • So let me guess. They’ve got a “real doll” son in the works for you, too. You can pass your name on to him and throw a baseball at him, but he’ll never require diaper changes when he’s new or cost you child support later. Right?

      Reply

      • DissafectedWithDating

        Right now I am 36 years old and I have never wanted children my entire life. And I am not alon in this – at least a quarter or even a third of all male people I know that are married and/or have children are the same way as me, its just that they gave in to the pressure from their wives, their parents, who wanted grandchildren, etc.

        Reply

        • Well, I can relate to that in the sense that when my first daughter was on the way I felt in no way ready to be a father and was scared stiffless. But the very moment she arrived, I was smitten. These days Emily and I have two more and they’re amazing kids who fill our lives with joy and make us proud. We couldn’t be happier that our kids are in our lives. Parenthood might be one of those things that no man feels ready or prepared for.

          Reply

          • DissafectedWithDating

            You know what, Scot, even though I do not know you, even though I am against (Modern) Marriage (or Marriage 2.0, if you will) and even though I see children as hardly anything more, but problems in general, I really am happy for you. Honestly. I mean, the sources of happiness and contentment are different for various people, and if you have found your personal ones, more power to you.

            I have to say, however, that right now you are about 40 years, which is very young. You never know when your wife becomes “unhaaaaapy” and take you to the cleaners. Remember: no man marries expecting to be living in sexless marriage, expecting to be divorced and sent to the cleaners. Besides, wives get old, ugly, fat, which is a real pity.

            Admitedly, so do men, but we are still visual and we still want to have an attractive lover (women are right to be dreading the loss of physical beauty) even though we cannot attract 20something women anymore. However, “RealDolls” render this situation to be fixable. But I digress…

          • Schadenfreude is nothing new to me. I’ve managed to collect my fair share of messages from men watching and waiting for the wheels to fall off our marriage for ten years now. They’re still waiting, of course.

            But for the record, let’s indeed acknowledge that you don’t know me very well. Your assumptions aren’t exactly accurate. Although I’m flattered that you would assume I’m nine years younger than I really am, I’m not nearly as naive about the potential pitfalls of bad marriage choices as you might think–and for what it’s worth, neither is Emily. Yet, here we are, married again…and after nearly ten years neither of us has caused the other even fleeting moment of regret.

            Indeed, there’s a reason we feel so passionately about our life purpose as dating and relationship coaches. We’re committed to helping others rise above painful experiences and lingering skepticism, enabling them to have fulfilling LTRs that transcend the bleak statistical reality of this post-modern, highly narcissistic world.

            On a separate but related train of thought, there’s a danger of logical inconsistency in aiming all the fear and blame toward women. Citing your own argument, if women indeed lose all their inherent value in your eyes as they age, how is it that WE as men should be the ones who fear losing them? Surely you would acknowledge that there’s just as much risk of the man leaving the “old, ugly, fat” woman to die alone, no? If this is all about the financial side of things, believe me when I tell you after ten years of doing what I do that divorced men almost invariably more financially liquid than divorced women are, and it’s about 50/50 with regard to who leaves who.

            Finally, I can’t expect you to fully grasp the concept of true love (I don’t generally use the term “soulmate”), but fighting “old, ugly, fat” is more a matter of long-term health than it is visual attraction. The best version of our authentic selves will always be radiantly beautiful to each other. There’s a transcendence beyond that.

            All of that said, my wife Emily is damn hot for her age, and it’s a safe bet she always will be. That doesn’t hurt.

          • DissafectedWithDating

            Srry for late reply.

            I am replying to *THIS* comment because for some reason I couldn’t find the “Reply” button under your last comment.

            Anyway.

            Actually, I didn’t consider you naive at all regardless the fact that I attributed you to being 9 years younger that you apparently are. What I was refering when in my comment I was saying that you are “young” and when I was saying that “no one enter marriage expecting divorce” is that your perception of “marriage as bliss” could have seemed from your own (currently) positive experience regarding it and that might not be necessarily the same for many many – even most, I would argue – men. Still, it seems that you might know the conditionality and limited likelihood of the happiness that your marriage seems to be encompassing.

            Why we should be the ones fearing of them leaving even though they become “worthless”? You told yourself – mostly (but not exclusivelly) monetary side of things. It is men who lose the house that they have to pay mortgage to. It is men who tend to lose their cars. It is men who pay the child support most often. It is men who pay over 90% of all alimony payments. You state that men tend to be better off after marriage compared to women. I would disagree with that. My experience from my divorces guys and colleages shows that the ex-wife tends to have more disposable money in comparison to the husband. Out of 9 or 10 divorced guys I know only 1 seems to be better off financially than his ex. Also, another thing is important to compare when we talk about financial matters: the loss of income and wealth that the man experiences – compare the income and wealth before the divorce and after. The quality of life – at least for men it is dramatically lower, speaking financially. The man often is unable to live in his house. He loses a significant amount of income in alimony and/or child support. So, yea, the financial side of things matter and I don’t think after divorce women are worse off financially.

            Another important thing that the man loses is his children (sure, like I said, I don’t want to have children as they are mostly burden, but I am talking in general. Men still seem to be quite idealistic towards children. Instead of living easy and carefree life, they still want to leave their “legacy”. And in order to do that they have to work much harder to get enough money for family, to attract women, to have sleepless nights, etc., which causes a LOT of stress and requires a LOT of effort during lifetimes.. and out of these 9-10 divorced guys I know, only 3 of them would still have children knowing what they know now). When you are bonded with a child, losing it seems to be quite painful.

            And regarding your last point… I have read somewhere that men tend to remember their wife they way she looked when that man met her even though she is 20, 30 or more years older. What you call “transcendence” is nothing more but a simple psychological illusion of our minds. But we seem to be heading towards the debate about “monism” versus “dualism” in both, psychology and philosophy.

            It seems to me that we have reached an impass: you will be emphasizing the potential happiness of marriage and long-term relationship, while I will be emphasizing the potential pitfalls. That means that in some way we both seem to “have a point”. But I will tell you this: out of all peole I know that are or have been marrie, only a minority (about 15-20%) are truly happy. Other are either divorced or miserable in sexless marriages.

            Sorry, I don’t want to take that chance nor to go through the process of approaching, courting, dating, yada yada yada towards taking this chance in the first place.

            Hence, MGTOW. And those sexy dollies, who satisfy more than necessary for me to be more than just “content”.

          • Well, suffice it to say that you’re underestimating what I’ve experienced in the past. Honestly, I went through one of the most nightmarish first marriages (nightmarriage?) you can imagine, complete with all of your horror stories. I’ve documented that over the last ten years so no need to rehash it all here.

            The difference is that I took responsibility for that (even though nothing or nobody actually demanded that of me) and gained wisdom, knowledge and skill that allowed me to date more effectively and choose more wisely the second time around.

            FWIW, the “transcendence” has nothing to do with her looks, ultimately. It’s all about depth of relationship, mutual esteem and (dare I say it in this company) true love.

            The dolls still creep me out, man. I mean, why not just go with HD porn?

          • DissafectedWithDating

            Well, like I (or maybe it was you who?) said that I don’t know your life story. And regarding transcendence, well, like I said, it is just a psychological trick that our mind provides us with in order to make pair bonding strongers. If it feels good and is sustainable long term, however, then nothing more is needed to say or to “justify” your “true love” and situation “married”. Not sure you were “justifying”, though. Perhaps you were sharing a bit of your life story in order to state that, acording to your own subjective life story in the sea among millions, “true love” (as you put it) does exist, just that you have to find it, which you can do if you try hard enough.

            And regarding dolls. Creepy? Hmm. Perhaps. You see, we, men, tend to express our emotions during sex. My experience shows that when you have sex with that doll, you form emotional bonding to it and you are no longer in need to pursue females because you become… simply content with what you have, which is a great feeling. Ohh and, besides, you can cuddle with a doll while watching some TV series or a movie. And that is also a great feeling. :)

          • When you get right down to it, life in general is a psychological trick.

          • DissafectedWithDating

            This one I agree. And manipulating one’s mind and psyche to give one psychological contentment at lowest “cost” (I mean in general sense – not only financially, but also psychologically, time-wise, effort-wise, risk-wise, you get the idea) is the true moral thing to do (from egotist and hedonist point of view, which I am).

            And today I am planning to have some fun with Jenny (that’s how I call my doll), take a shower and go to play some poker with my buddies while eating pizza and drinking beer as well as “watching” (well, it will just be “on” – no one’s gonna listen to it anyway) wrestling. Life is good. :)

      • OSRHardHat

        You do realise that the desire to breed isn’t universal?

        Have you ever read about that mice study which is referred to as ‘the beautiful ones’?

        It very well could be that this social disharmony is an organic form of population control.

        Reply

      • Roberto

        I Guess it’s easy to bash a man that has some type of sex toy, and/or make a sarcastic remark. But I bet the same people who make such remarks about this wouldn’t dare make similar comments about a woman having dildos or a vibrator.

        Reply

  91. Mickey

    Too many women today don’t have much use for men. They think most men aren’t worth a damn and are frat boys who never grew up still living in Mom and Dad’s basement. And, they go out of their way to be unapproachable. So what’s to “notice?”

    Reply

  92. Frederick

    Can’t speak for anyone but myself, but my not noticing or paying attention to women was quite deliberate.

    I’ve never been the sort of man who didn’t notice a woman. I can practically spot an attractive woman at fifty yards. Seriously. But, women never seemed to notice me. So I decided not to give them that sort of power over me, ever again. I decided to practically ignore them.

    I used to use it as a form of revenge, for all it was worth. The more attractive a woman was, the less likely I’d even look in her direction. I even thought that what I was doing made a difference.

    What a laugh, I should have known better. Can’t imagine they noticed, much less cared. Oh well, it is what it is.

    Reply

    • That sounds functionally similar to what I call “shyness induced snobbery”, except maybe more of a rejection-induced version?

      Reply

      • Frederick

        Admittedly, yeah. ‘Rejection-induced snobbery’ is a good name for it.

        I’m really starting to enjoy your work, Scot. Truly. I’m on board with about 90% of what you say.

        Except…

        I’m not sold on the idea that ‘women are hoping we figure this all out’. I don’t see the evidence of that in my day-to-day dealings with women. And I very rarely see any sort of encouragement to start conversions with women these days. I like to think I’m looking for that encouragement…maybe I’m not looking for the right things; I can’t assume I’ve been going about that the right way.

        I know men are supposed to take the lead, but without indication that women even WANT to be led…well, that’s one way my brand of ‘snobbery’ manifests itself.

        Fighting it is kind of an uphill battle, and I’m working on overcoming it, but it takes two to tango.

        Reply

        • To some degree you do have to be proactive. Remember, if it’s tough for 95% of men to be bold then how can we expect so many women to pick up the slack? Besides, women are turned on by masculine leadership so it feels somehow backwards for them to send blatant signals. Still, that doesn’t mean there aren’t subtle signals. Most men miss those completely, much to the chagrin of women.

          Reply

          • Frederick

            I can’t logically argue that women don’t send signals just because I don’t catch on to them. Absence of proof doesn’t necessarily mean proof of absence. Or something.

            And past experience has proven that I’m not really crazy about women who send blatant signals, either. I need both hands to count the number of women who killed my attraction for them by coming on to me too strong.

            So I guess there’s only one thing left to do.

          • Isn’t that ironic? We as men often don’t like women after they throw themselves at us, do we?

          • Mickey

            Scot:

            Most women won’t even try to meet a guy halfway, let alone pick up any slack. Say what you will, but Frederick is spot on: women are anything but encouraging.

          • Depends on how we lead and how we present ourselves.

          • Don

            Women are not turned on by ‘Masculine Leadership’ in most of the states on the East coast, West coast, Chicago, Dallas areas. Are there outliers, sure.

            I have had the opportunities to travel and live in multiple places. There is a different mindset, culture when you go to the inlands of America. More hospitality, more of the habits of time long ago. Not everywhere, but you would definitely notice the difference.

            I can only speak in my observations. Most of men and women don’t want to reach their necks out because collectively both have been cut many times.

          • Well, I’ve been to every major metro in the US with few exceptions and 110 other countries worldwide. And I respectfully disagree about your assessment of whether or not women are turned on or not by masculine leadership. Granted, it has to be genuine, not self-serving narcissism.

    • JustAnotherGuy

      Your not alone Frederick, I also trained myself to so the same thing early in life because I just don’t care for the role of begger that nature has delt men. But it is what it is and I find that if you just treat everyone including those really attractive women like any other person then life is good. Problem is usually when we go gah gah over a hot babe and act like retarded cavemen. Gotta fight it!

      Reply

      • Yes, but see your latter point proves that men aren’t necessarily the “beggars”. Chasing is not gender-specific. Whoever believes he or she has options is the one with the power. What typically goes on is men who aren’t attracting women for whatever reason believe women hold all the cards, but they’re only considering the attractive women with options. Meanwhile, women who are having a difficult time attracting men usually believe that men have all the control, but they too are only considering the men they find desirable. We as men can become more desirable to women, have more options, and then realize that we really can be choosers instead of chasers.

        Reply

        • JustAnotherGuy

          Scot, I totaly agree with that point. Sometimes those of us out in single land that are just average looking or don’t have a great social dynamic in our character forget to look at the bigger picture or see another point o view.

          Reply

          • Honestly, I think if some of you guys could go back in time and see the 14-year-old version of me you’d be hella inspired. To say I wasn’t a “natural” is an understatement.

        • Mickey

          Scot, I have 2 questions for you. First, how many vicious, hostile smackdowns does a normal guy have to take in the now unrealistic hope of just getting a freakin’ date? Second, as one who has been shot down and mocked many many times in my younger days for showing an interest in the allegedly “fair sex”, I submit: experience sure doesn’t lie, does it?

          Reply

          • 1) Mickey, if you’re getting a consistently vicious, hostile smackdown when you show interest in women the good news is you’re illiciting that pattern. I promise you that’s the case, and I hope that inspires you instead of angering you. You indeed can affect how that goes by how you go about it.

            2) Experience doesn’t lie, but it should also teach us. Please know that I’m no “natural”. I had a very rough time with women when I was much younger, but took responsibility for it and indeed turned my fortunes around dramatically. This is a major reason why I’m so passionate about what I teach.

  93. Mickey

    Scot: For example, when a simple “hello, how are you?” is met with “f**k you, creep!”, not too many guys are willing to stick their neck out again. Why can’t you see that?

    Reply

    • I can’t see that because I HAVEN’T seen that.

      I’ve done in-field work with guys for ten years now and I have NEVER (as in not even once) had anyone get a “harsh rejection” from any woman…ever. Some of these guys even approached in a more, shall we say “unconventional” way than, “Hello, how are you?”. Yes, some women were busy. Others had boyfriends. Some lacked well-developed social skills, as not all women are as infallible in that area as the Seduction Community would sometimes have you believe.

      But expletives and insults in response to a simple, reasonable greeting? I hear that storyline CONSTANTLY from guys and yet witness it in real life NEVER.

      Honestly, my strong suspicion is one of three scenarios is true: 1) You SUSPECT the hard rejection will happen, but haven’t actually ever put it to the test in the real world, thereby creating a convenient, angry yet completely theoretical excuse 2) It happened like that one time, and you’ve projected that one woman’s particularly unreasonable, unusual, wack-job demeanor toward you on all women going forward from there, or 3) if this really is a pattern you’re genuinely, seriously creepy and are simply blind to it.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        Well Scot, I haven’t thought to approach a woman in at least 10 years. You say you’ve never seen that level of hostility, well, God Bless you. Unfortunately, seeing the Easter Bunny is much more realistic than meeting women who are nice, friendly, approachable, etc. A lifetime of experience has taught me the exact opposite: most women are just downright unfriendly. If that makes me creepy, so be it; I no longer care. You see, one man’s realism is another man’s creepiness. I don’t know what else to tell you.

        Reply

        • You have to care or you wouldn’t be here.

          Reply

          • Mickey

            No; once you’ve reached the point where you’ve been thoroughly demoralized, that’s when you stop caring.

          • Burnt Flowers Fallen

            “Guys, you can make all the assumptions you want about who I am and what I know. All I can say is that it sure looks like you NEED me to be wrong in order to defend your own views, which are based mostly on your own attitude and how you lead as a direct result.”

            Nonsense. Many of the observations by men over the years don’t come from their attitudes—it comes from being aware of the dynamic between men and women and how it’s been soiled over time. Have you ever considered that you are not correct in your assumptions—and that the overwhelming amount of experiences that men have went through are actually legit compared to your misconceptions? I am a bit surprised at your age you could act naive like this.

            Seek out what men are having dialogue concerning the topics they are expressing here, when they feel they can be honest about them without being told it’s just their attitude.

            We don’t live in the 50s anymore. The interactions between the sexes are way different.

          • So then, how exactly has the dynamic between men and women been “soiled” over time? Is that all women’s fault in general?

            These “men and women” you speak of are independent, sentient creatures. Each of us is responsible for our own reality, and we as men have a wonderful opportunity to take a dominant role in creating it since women respond to male leadership.

            Sadly, I’m under no misconception that the experiences of other men aren’t “legit”. They’re legitimately a function of their own attitudes.

            I mean, seriously…your username is “Burnt Flowers Fallen” and your e-mail address is “wrathful1@hotmail.com”. And you’re going to have me believe that your attitude has nothing to do with this? I’m being objective here.

        • Burnt Flowers Fallen

          Mickey, Scott either doesn’t really know what’s like out in the dating world, or is in denial.

          And this is coming from someone who has bedded several women over the years, by the way.

          Reply

          • Guys, you can make all the assumptions you want about who I am and what I know. All I can say is that it sure looks like you NEED me to be wrong in order to defend your own views, which are based mostly on your own attitude and how you lead as a direct result.

            This is no different than listening to a group of man-bashing women talk about how “all men are dogs/liars/etc.” As long as they believe that, no real man of character in his right mind is going to give them any positive attention. Therefore, their mindset becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

            Were you to come do a Ten-Plus Live weekend with me, you’d see right before your very eyes the reality of a practically endless stream of sweet, interested women who’ll do practically anything for me with a smile.

            Here’s a hint: I don’t talk about success with women in terms of having “bedded them”.

  94. TheTruth

    With so many women out there that are really Psychos today, it is very scary trying to have a normal Conversation with them.

    Reply

    • Well, you’re talking to a guy who has more than his fair share of experience in that regard. Yet I assure you, the first step to eliminating psycho women is to stop attracting them. Perhaps ironically, men who believe most if not all women are crazy tend to welcome them and accept them by virtue of assuming they’re the default option.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        Scot: It seems to me that you might be overvaluing attitude at the expense of experience. For example, if one gets bitten by a dog and then makes a conscious decision to avoid dogs in the future, does experience not factor into that decision? Secondly, as many guys, myself included, have discussed the now adversarial (at best) relations between men and women, we can’t be ALL wrong, can we?

        Reply

        • No, you’re not all wrong. In fact, I believe 100% that you’re recounting your experiences as they are.

          The part that you guys are conveniently overlooking is that I’ve BEEN THERE myself. I’m a survivor of being ignored by women, if not ridiculed and rejected. And yes, it was a pattern. And yes, I was also in about as bad a marriage as you can imagine…and am still paying the price for it today.

          BUT…nowadays women almost universally adore me, are total sweethearts and will do anything for me. I haven’t had even one woman be flat-out rude or mean to me in…wow…at LEAST 15 years.

          I’m also married to the right woman, who in nearly ten years of knowing her has yet to cause me even a fleeting moment of regret.

          What was the difference that changed the EXPERIENCE? Attitude. Purely.

          While some of you would like (or even need) to make excuses on my behalf, the bottom line is that I’m viewing this from a position of BOTH experience AND attitude change. in the process of learning more about what it means to be a man, I realized how potentially powerful such a mindset change would be. I bet the farm on it and won BIG TIME.

          Therefore, I’m as qualified as anyone to motivate whoever will listen to not trust personal experience as an indicator of universal truth.

          If you LEAD, women will follow. He who loves women and believes they should love him in return usually gets exactly what he expects.

          Again…some of you want to assume I’m young, naive, Bradley Cooper, a multi-millionaire or whatever else helps you marginalize my message. The truth is I’m a regular guy who overcame the exact obstacles some of you feel so bitter about, discovered the “big four”, turned this ship completely around in breathtaking fashion and am now so passionate about helping other guys succeed with women that I’ve long since quit my previous career to do so full time.

          Reply

          • Mickey

            Scot: I take my hat off to you for finding the right woman, especially after going through a horrendous divorce. That said, I believe that you are in the distinct minority here. I think that for every guy who has found the right women, there are any number of guys (1, 10, 20, 500, who knows?) who’ve done everything they can possibly do, with little to no success, and eventually threw in the sponge.

            Thus, after hitting one’s head against the wall so many times with nothing to show for it, what’s left?

            The clichés out there that suggest that “there’s someone for everyone,” “it only takes one,” “you need to give it one more chance,” “you need a little more confidence,” and the like unfortunately ring hollow after so many years or even decades of futility.

            So, as I see it, the idea of an attitude adjustment after so many bad, unsuccessful, traumatic, experiences will magically transform one into a master seducer is as unlikely as the idea that growing a second sex organ will do the trick.

            Sorry, but after more than a half century on this earth and seeing male-female interactions get progressively worse over the past 20 to 30 years, I just don’t believe.

          • Well, of course I’m in the minority here. The only guys who are commenting on this so passionately are the ones for whom it’s an issue. I once was at the table next to about a dozen AA members who were apparently out for dinner after a meeting. Had you sat at that table you would have thought the entire world revolved around alcoholism. Meanwhile, the vast majority of people in the world for whom alcoholism isn’t an issue don’t think about it much.

            I’m here because what I teach works. And it is indeed rooted in mindset, followed by a change in action. You just can’t get bitter over what has happened in the past and expect women to come proactively dig you out of that hole. Nope…men LEAD and women follow. The harsh reality is that you must modify your leadership before you can expect women’s response to change. But change it will.

      • Mickey

        “Perhaps ironically, men who believe most if not all women are crazy tend to welcome them and accept them by virtue of assuming they’re the default option.”

        Scot, I really have a hard time believing that one, considering many women are just plain open in their hostility and antipathy towards men. So, once I find that women want nothing to do with me as a guy, I for one do not welcome them as you suggest. I’d like to think that I have both the confidence (a trait women allegedly find attractive…how ironic) and common sense to keep my distance.

        Reply

        • Granted, this concept would not apply to men who aren’t welcoming any women in general. That simply follows logic.

          Reply

          • Mickey

            “…this concept would not apply to men who aren’t welcoming any women in general.”

            And it would not apply to those women who are not welcoming any men, either. That is also logical.

          • Yes. Not gender specific.

            But again…I don’t at all believe that’s where most people are coming from.

          • Yes. Not gender specific.

            But again…I don’t at all believe that’s where most people are coming from.

    • Well, you’re talking to a guy who has more than his fair share of experience in that regard. Yet I assure you, the first step to eliminating psycho women is to stop attracting them. Perhaps ironically, men who believe most if not all women are crazy tend to welcome them and accept them by virtue of assuming they’re the default option.

      Reply

  95. Mickey

    “So then, how exactly has the dynamic between men and women been ‘soiled’ over time?”

    1) Just about any interaction at work can be construed to be sexual harassment.

    2) Looking at women on any street can be construed to be attempted rape.

    3) The de-facto criminalization of guys on college campuses.

    4) A court system now set up to destroy husbands and fathers at every turn, with a de-facto presumption of guilt/wrongdoing against men.

    Thanks to the now politically and legally sanctioned misandry, interacting with the allegedly “fair-sex” is today 100 percent risk, 0 percent return, and very little hope of due process if you’re a guy.

    That’s not a lack of “leadership”, that’s fact.

    Reply

    • The vast majority of guys who mention that have read or heard about it more than they’ve actually experienced it. So that’s not exactly fact, it’s presumed hearsay.

      That said, I will say…

      1) Most women realize those seminars are made necessary by a few creepy people. Most men take them to mean “never talk to women or you’re a rapist”. So fair enough, but that doesn’t change that workplace flirting ultimately still goes on.

      2) Only by an angry, damaged minority of women who got together and made inflammatory YouTube videos that got millions of views. The women who aren’t angry and damaged didn’t make those videos.

      3) Not sure about that one, but if all men are “criminals” at a particular college then I’m not applying there. And as a gender I represent half of the pool from which they might draw their next freshman class (women’s colleges notwithstanding, of course).

      4) Dude…what you guys need to understand is EVERYBODY loses in the US family court system as it is, except lawyers. That’s not gender specific. I’ll have lots more to say on this after my daughter graduates high school.

      Remarkably, the women out there who mean well and actually like men would cite that dating has been made more difficult and men less amenable to them by the actions of post-modern Feminist groups and the perceived “war against men”. So again…everyone who means well loses.

      This is why I said earlier that when all of this craziness is reversed (which is starting to happen, if you look at the signs in the media, etc.) it will have been well-meaning women who led the charge, wanting their real men back.

      Reply

      • Kevin

        ” …everyone who means well loses !! ” Precisely , Scot !! This is NO accident either , a messed up , hateful , downtrodden ” society ” is what the malignant ” Powers That Be ” are deliberately trying to engineer !! ( to control the populace ) People need to disconnect from the lamestream ” media ” & think for themselves. Women are primary targets for negative propaganda ( anti male for example ) as they are more emotional thinkers. Think about it…unhappy , hateful women = men going the same way !!

        Reply

        • Absolutely. People are following instead of leading. “If they hate us, we’ll hate them right back.”

          I do believe this is a particularly dire state of affairs for us as men, however. The reaction in kind to hateful women undermines our position as leaders, and even the good women are merely following that leadership. Unfortunately the #MGTOW crowd doesn’t want to acknowledge that, let alone even give it a try.

          Reply

          • Mickey

            “Unfortunately the #MGTOW crowd doesn’t want to acknowledge that, let alone even give it a try.”

            Give it a try? Why should they?

          • Why should they? That’s what my last comment was all about, Mickey.

  96. Mickey

    “You just can’t get bitter over what has happened in the past and expect women to come proactively dig you out of that hole.”

    Sometimes all the wishing, hoping, changes in mindset, etc. in the world just will not make some things happen. I wanted to be a six foot five quarterback in the National Football League. I’m not. I wanted to be the seven figure CFO of a Fortune 500 Corporation. I’m not. I wanted to be the valedictorian of my high school class. I dropped out instead (although I graduated from college and law school). There were women I wanted to connect with, but didn’t. Does that make me a complete and total failure? I don’t think so. Some things just aren’t meant to be and some things are just out of one’s grasp irrespective of mindset.

    I certainly admit my share of mistakes, missteps and insecurities trying to meet the so-called “fair sex” in my younger days. That said, I most assuredly am not waiting around for someone to dig me out of some hole as you say.

    Thus, if I can’t connect with the fair sex for whatever the reason, so be it. I readily admit that I stopped trying years ago. There’s just no point trying to find something that just ain’t there.

    Reply

    • My point was that lots of guys seem to think that the rejection they fear (even if it’s just conjecture) is all women’s fault. It sounds like they want women to proactively chase them before they’re convinced otherwise, which is an untenable strategy.

      As to your other point, I fail to see how missing out on a low-probability opportunity compares to complete, utter failure with women. There are fewer than 100 NFL quarterbacks and exactly 500 Fortune 500 CFOs. There can only be one valedictorian in each high school class. But there are 3.5 billion women on Earth to potentially adore you.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        Regardless of sample size or the probability of opportunity, a swing and a miss is still a swing and a miss.

        Reply

  97. Mickey

    “We all tend to attract EXACTLY who we expect to attract.”

    Okay…then what happens when you stop caring to the point where you do NOT expect to attract anyone?

    Reply

  98. Mickey

    “See, here again…it’s all women’s fault and none of your own. That makes you a victim because you’re choosing to be powerless.”

    Scot, I told you just yesterday that I readily admit to my mistakes, missteps and insecurities in my younger days when trying to meet the “fair sex.” What more do you want?

    That said, when you have more than a few women who walk in lockstep with the mentality that guys can’t do anything right, and as a guy you already have 2 strikes against you in this new world order, the man-hating, feminazi universe as we know it today, it’s nothing more than an exercise in futility trying to prove that many guys are reasonably sane human beings. As I also told you recently, I have had it and I stopped trying years ago. There is just no point in banging your head against the wall in perpetuity only to have nothing to show for it.

    Thus, refusing any further attempts to reach the unreachable is not a victim mentality or any so-called failure of leadership. I, for one, have led myself out the door of this madness.

    You have your frame of reference and I have mine.

    Reply

    • Well, fair enough. But I’m still wondering why you even trifle with the subject of male/female relationships if you’ve left the room and slammed the door behind you years ago.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        Doesn’t mean I don’t have an opinion.

        Reply

        • On a related note, I can’t help but notice that every instance of man-bashing on the women’s side or #MGTOW on the men’s side is always seasoned with anger, hate and bitterness…even toward those who simple disagree with being so angry, hurt and bitter.

          Yet instead of moving on to non-MOTOS based activity, their topic of choice always still tends to be MOTOS. Why give them that much mindshare if they’re that damaging to your well-being?

          Reply

          • Kevin

            I wondered that myself , why not simply ” disconnect ” from the other gender. Have seen some ultra-misandrist sites that advocate the extermination of all men , plus others that champion the mutilation of men ,quotes such as ” Castrate your son with pliers , he deserves it for being male ” this comment was referring to a defenceless child!! This hatred is exactly what the ” Powers That Be ” I’ve mentioned above want !! Don’t play into their hands , plus hatred will corrode the hater too !!

          • Now see, I’ve never in my life ever even gone looking for sites like that. I think you can get whatever trouble you’re looking for online if you type the right key words into Google.

            And I couldn’t be more in agreement about hatred corroding the hater. That much is a fact.

          • Mickey

            Have seen some ultra-misandrist sites that advocate the extermination of all men , plus others that champion the mutilation of men ,quotes such as ” Castrate your son with pliers , he deserves it for being male ”

            @Kevin & Scot:

            Gents, if that doesn’t prove that today’s gender relations have deteriorated into the camps of “US vs. THEM”, I don’t know what will.

          • Um…not any more than the existence of “Spurs.com” proves that everyone is a San Antonio Spurs fan.

  99. Mickey

    1) “After all, with as much as they apparently fear bad guys, who’s going to step in and protect them if they end up alienating ALL OF US…even the would-be heros amongst us?”

    I’m sure the prevailing man-hate will swoop in and save the day, as always.

    2) “Unfortunately, it’s a small minority of women who feel that way.”

    Google “men suck” or “men are dogs” or “men are worthless”, to name a few, and see the zillions of hits that come up. I submit, these are hardly the musings of a disgruntled few.

    Reply

    • By “few”, we’re still talking about millions of people on a global scale, so no surprise there. And remember, disgruntled people are more passionate and vocal than those who aren’t feeling that sort of pain.

      You could just as easily find all the #MGTOW guys bitching about how terrible women are. That doesn’t mean that most guys can’t stand women.

      In the end, it’s all natural selection at work. Let those who appreciate the other gender procreate.

      Reply

  100. Mickey

    Scot, its pretty unlikely that there’s a faction of Spurs fans who want to castrate Knicks fans.

    I still maintain that the level of relations between men and women are at an all time low, and now polarized to the point where there’s probably no hope of reconciliation.

    This is what the man-hating feminazis wanted, and now they’ve got it. This monster of gender polarization is THEIR baby.

    Us vs. Them indeed.

    Reply

    • And if you were willing to seek out the good women, you’d find them also.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        Thanks to all the anti-male propaganda incentivizing generations of women to now believe that men are worthless at best, inept as usual, and the enemy at worst, there isn’t much point anymore trying to prove them wrong.

        Reply

  101. Garry

    If ‘noticing’ a woman = making a cold approach, than for myself I can only say that there are more productive ways to establish relationships. And I’m not talking about the lack of some approach skill being the barrier.

    Yours is the only dating newsletter I read. The products I’ve bought from you have value to me, and I think some of your deserve what you want philosophy figures into my thinking on all of this.

    Anyone who’s ever worked in sales knows that qualified prospects are a better use of time than unqualified prospects. The vast majority of the good first dates in my life since I turned 25 or so — the ones that evolved into enjoyable relationships of some sort — were first dates I initiated after I believed there were multiple reasons to want to bring the woman into my life. IOW, after she seemed to be a qualified prospect in sales speak.

    I knew her in some way, maybe the friend of a friend, maybe a work contact, which doesn’t mean the same thing as a co-worker, maybe someone who was involved in a group I’m a part of, maybe on line. Not dating sites so much as online communities of other kinds. Bottom line was I was aware enough of her to know I’d like to know her better and in more ways. I very much noticed her and I acted on it.

    I’ve preferred that to approaching the hot stranger in the grocery store for the simple fact that the latter, for me, presents a more difficult process AFTER I get her number, assuming I do. The phone convo that follows, and the date that may follow is built on the premise of ‘I’m hoping you’re as interesting, enjoyable, and as worthy an addition to my life as you are lovely to gaze upon.’ I’m past the point in my life where I’d overlook a lot of things just because she was pretty and knew her way around a mattress, not to say my being that easily satisfied wasn’t fun in its day, but whatever.

    I prefer to build first dates on something more than hope or wishful thinking. Maybe there is a comfort zone thing going on, I don’t want to be in the position of conveying to a perfectly nice woman ‘nah, not for me’ and somewhere in the back of my mind there is a sense that ‘okay, I asked this woman out, even if it’s just for an hour of coffee, she’s hoping something will come of it, so now I’ve got to make it work for her sake’.

    To drill a little deeper, maybe the ‘fear of rejection’ cuts both ways. I think a lot of us as men have a discomfort with being the rejecter. Women seem to have some social scripts that they can comfortably fall back on and feel okay with. The whole mechanics of flaking and whatnot. (I think women who flake or don’t return calls are for the most part not b*tches, but decent human beings who want to avoid the awkwardness of telling a guy ‘you just don’t interest me’) I think men, because we’re hardwired to protect and lead have a harder time disengaging, unless of course the whole player mindset works for us. We aren’t as at home with the passive eject of flaking, we’d prefer a more direct way of doing it, but like women we aren’t comfortable with a blunt ‘thanks but no thanks’ and we’re just not able to say ‘I asked you out the first time I saw you because I wanted to find out if you would fit my life as well as your jeans fit you, now I’m seeing that you won’t.’ or even ‘I asked you out because you looked so damn good I didn’t think about anything else, but now that I am . . .’ Even though that may have been the stone cold truth of the thing.

    And here’s the paradox . . . the whole thing of surrendering our power to the old model of ‘men chase, women choose’ made the dance easier in some ways. The guy tries like hell to impress the woman, puts the ball in her court, and lets the chips fall where they may. Once we as men move beyond that, find that we don’t want some of the women who want us (not because there is anything wrong with those women, there is generally a lot that is very right with them, but not right for us) we re-prioritize and become more discerning and ask fewer women out.

    Dating, like sales will always be a numbers game. I’ve worked with reps who pre qualify too much and lose out on lucrative clients because they were looking for the sure thing. It can be true of dating as well. There is also a happy medium where when a man knows what he wants in a relationship, as well as knows the unique pleasures and problems he’ll present to a woman in his life, he does have a better idea of what he’s looking for. I don’t think any guy ever fails to notice and act on the presence of a woman when he has a heightened sense — something beyond a roll the dice hope — that she is such a woman.

    That all said, one of the reoccurring themes in the men’s dating community has been ‘don’t take rejection personally, doesn’t mean you’re not a great guy, just means she doesn’t think you’re the specific kind of great she’s looking for’. I’ll say to the women reading this; that it goes both ways. A man’s behavior when he encounters you is largely driven by his beliefs — accurate and inaccurate — about himself, about women in general, along with his past experiences and a thousand things big and small that reside in his mind and his life. He knows all of those things much more intimately than he knows you. We’re going through much the same sorting and processing that you’re going through. We’re not all that different, certainly not nearly as different as some self styled gurus will have us all believe.

    That you’re here on this site means you agree with Scot’s beliefs in ‘Big Four’ men and the complimentary characteristics in women, beliefs which do more to build connections than construct walls. We’re all navigating similar waters when it comes to the desire to bring quality people into our lives and not make a mess of things for ourselves or them in the process.

    Reply

  102. Dan

    So why is it that guys now seem like they don’t notice or look at attractive women in public anymore?

    I think the first reason, fear of seeming predatory/creepy, is the strongest factor. But it goes further than that. Among many of my acquaintances, it seems like it’s just “not cool” to do that (which I think is kind of sad.) So there is a type of unspoken peer pressure going on as well. Not only are guys afraid of being seen as predatory by the woman, they are also afraid of being perceived as being uncool and uncouth by the woman and by their peers too. Fear and social conditioning. They don’t think it’s “ok.”

    You touched on social media and porn, which has a lot to do with how people tend to interact less in person these days, but regarding the question of looking at women in public I would say it goes further than that. We live in an age of information overload, and a lot of guys are desensitized to seeing attractive women because they are bombarded with images of sexy beauty everyday, all the time. Not just from porn but all media, which most people tend to consume way too much of. So seeing an attractive woman on the street is not as eye-catching as it once was to many guys.

    Also, many guys have so much crazy stuff going on in their life that they are absorbed in their own intense world of responsibilities and worries. They don’t feel good about themselves so they don’t want to look at attractive women, because that’s just one more thing they desire, even if on a general level, that they feel they can’t have, and that makes them feel bad.

    Some guys are happy in a relationship and feel it is disrespectful to the relationship to look at women even when their partner/spouse isn’t around. And perhaps it is, perhaps it isn’t, I suppose it depends on the context.

    Then there are certain guys who think that noticing an attractive woman is somehow giving away their power as a man.

    Many guys expect a neutral to bad response (back to fear again.) Also a lot of guys don’t know what to do if they were to get any type of favorable response, so they just don’t go there. That is assuming that the woman saw them glance at her in the first place.

    And some guys just don’t care.

    All that said, I think the urge to look is still there, but consciously over-ridden by one or more of the above factors (except perhaps desensitization which would be more unconscious.) Guys still talk about girls among themselves as always, but it’s true, they just don’t look at them in public as much.

    I am 46 and have been respectfully noticing/looking at women for as long as I can remember, since I was a little kid, and I still do it all the time. I have found that women, of all ages, usually respond very favorably to me and at the worst neutrally. I never get a bad response. I’m not talking about approaching women here and starting a conversation, that’s another topic, I’m just talking about noticing/looking at them in a public setting and perhaps saying hello if appropriate for the situation.

    This is what most guys don’t get, and why they tend to be so frustrated in this regard: your attitude and body language are everything, especially to a woman who doesn’t know you.

    For one thing, there is a big difference between looking at a woman with a genuine smile and looking at a woman without a smile. The latter is often a leer. Women are creeped out by that and I think that is one reason why women complain about it, and why men get bad responses. They probably don’t even realize they’re doing it. And they don’t realize their body language is unattractive. They don’t realize they are giving off negative vibes. They don’t realize they are acting effeminate, wimpy, and dorky, or on the other hand, too macho and jerky.

    To the guys reading this that don’t know better, all of these things are fixable. Scot’s “Big Four” qualities for men to aspire to really are a key for success. Take it from me, I’ve been both places. Fifteen years ago I was an angry, frustrated, depressed person fueled in part by a lack of success with and lack of respect from women. Just like many of the commenters here seem to be. I realized something had to change. There were many sources that provided me with help and Scot’s materials were one of them. It was an incredible amount of work to turn myself around and change my attitude and life for the better but I have conquered that and I now naturally attract women just by being my happy self. Let me tell you Scot is right about leading, as he uses the term in the broad sense. Women that are bitchy to others are not bitchy to me. I never really have problems with women any more. Dating or in day-to-day interactions. And just so you know, I only make $30k, it certainly isn’t about money. And I’m bald with average looks yet even college girls love me (I live in a college neighborhood, they’re too young for my tastes but I’m just trying to make a point here.) If you work on yourself you will eventually start to see a huge difference in how women relate to you. They will want to do things for you and make you happy.

    Reply

    • Mickey

      “…many guys have so much crazy stuff going on in their life that they are absorbed in their own intense world of responsibilities and worries. They don’t feel good about themselves so they don’t want to look at attractive women, because that’s just one more thing they desire, even if on a general level, that they feel they can’t have, and that makes them feel bad.”

      “Many guys expect a neutral to bad response (back to fear again.) Also a lot of guys don’t know what to do if they were to get any type of favorable response, so they just don’t go there.”

      Dan: What you said in your post is so true. What is truly sad is this: in some cases at least, whenever a guy sees a woman he’d like to know better, his sense of self-preservation gets the better of him and he backs off, realizing that approaching may lead to more aggravation than it is worth.

      Reply

    • Mickey

      A large part of the problem also lies in the fact that a lot of women carry themselves with a stuck-up attitude that says: “I know I’m hot, but YOU can’t have me!”

      Reply

      • That’s not gender specific. Basically, you’ve just proven my assertion that attitude makes a massive difference. We’re not necessarily victims unless we choose to be.

        Reply

        • Mickey

          If one cannot relate to the so-called “fair sex”, how exactly is that being a victim?

          Reply

          • Consider my comment above. If women are “stuck up”, it’s because of an attitude that believes men should favor them, if not worship them. My point is that’s the power of attitude. Victimhood, by contrast, is an inherent surrender of personal power.

      • Garry

        Some thoughts.

        1. People in general are less accurate in assessing other people’s mindsets than we think we are. There is a Rorschach thing going on oft times when we decide where another person’s head is.

        2. People, or at least reasonably healthy people, tend to focus more on what we want than what we don’t want. No doubt you pay more attention to women who’ve aroused your interest in some way than you do women who haven’t. People seldom direct any form of non verbal communication to people they’re not noticing. Disclaimer: Maybe bars and such where the atmosphere is hyped up are different; don’t know about that, I’m not a bar of club person so if that’s the environment being talked about I should bow out. I might as well type about conditions on Neptune. But in general settings a huge change in my life came when I stopped thinking of women as carrying around some great prize and occupying their time thinking about who they’ll give it to, but realized instead that they’re just like us; hoping and looking for someone to enhance their lives. If anything they, like us, carry with them a level of concern for the short comings and weaknesses that have cost them guys in the past. Those concerns share head space with the things they like about themselves. I think part of why women recoil at involvements that seem to be all about sex from the guy’s standpoint is that they already know they look good, but they have doubts about theirselves in other ways. Not just doubts about their weaknesses, but concerns that they won’t be appreciated for, or given a chance to share, parts of theirselves they hold dear. A string of booty calls does little to address and balm the things that keep them awake at nights when they’re alone. Guys tend to be less introspective and by having fewer questions we’re seeking answers for we can set the bar lower. She’s hot, she puts out, what can go wrong?

        3. When people, men and women, put on a compelling attitude it’s in service of acquiring something, not repelling it. Couple yrs ago I was giving my then GF’s BFF a ride home from the airport. Great woman, beautiful, smart, good character. It was a pleasant drive, she was in relaxed baseline state. Then she got a call from a guy she was interested in. Immediately she notched up the femininity, voice went higher, the giggles turned on, and she worked it for the duration of the call. Soon as the call was over she throttled back to where she’d been. I teased her about it some, she was like ‘My momma didn’t raise a dumb girl’ This was a woman who didn’t need to do anything but just show up and have guys drooling. Maybe she knew it, maybe she didn’t. Either way she calibrated to the task at hand. A guy can do the same thing and dial up the masculinity and meet confident femininity with its natural counterpart.

        But it’s a double edged sword. A guy who’s made up his mind to dislike and not trust women might be inclined to see that as ‘b*tch set her sights on something she wanted, gamed him til she had him where she wanted him, and once that happened all he’d ever experience from her was baseline state at best, probably something less’ Then we react with a defeatist mindset of ‘not gonna let her do that to me’

        Reply

  103. rahul

    hi scot . let me congratulate you on a very in depth and thoughtful article you have written :) it had happened to me too , i tried but got the wrong woman . i whistled and she jumped on me as if being sexual is wrong ! and it made a deep impact on me , never to be sexual . thank god after even that , creating some more mistakes . now i know the balance . the middle point !

    Reply

  104. Garry

    Great newsletter ‘Are Women the Enemy?’ Scot.

    The whole MGTOW and Fem-Nazi stuff and ‘all women are ___’ or ‘all men are ___’. is less about men or women than it is a glitch in how the human brain works. If a guy has an involvement with a woman who is a taker and a user, then has one with a woman who is a cheater he might start thinking ‘all women are trouble’. But if that same guy has a male friend who is a taker and a user, never pays for the gas or the beer, borrows power tools and doesn’t return them, etc, and he has dealings with another guy who tries to cheat him on a business deal, he doesn’t slide into a mindset of ‘all men are trouble’, he just recognizes that those two guys are problems.

    And women do the same thing. To us a girl who cheats on us our or friend may be representative of all women, but to other women, including those who’ve experienced her making plays for their bf’s, her actions are her own.

    We all run the risk of that thinking, dividing the world into ‘us’ and ‘them’. When a man says ‘all women are untrustworthy’ or a woman says ‘all men are predators’ it’s the same damn thing as saying ‘all blacks are thugs’, ‘all Irish are drunks’, or ‘all Jews are rich’. Supremicism and anger at some other group is a neurological pitfall that we can all be susceptible too if we don’t recognize it for what it is. When we encounter people we think are like us in race, gender, religion, social class, etc we fine tune our thinking about them on an individual level, one person at a time. But when we see them as different from us we are more likely to tell ourselves that their shortcomings as individuals are common for their group.

    Reply

  105. Mickey

    “Besides, women are turned on by masculine leadership so it feels somehow backwards for them to send blatant signals. Still, that doesn’t mean there aren’t subtle signals. Most men miss those completely, much to the chagrin of women.”

    Interesting…a woman’s expression of interest is fairly subtle yet a woman’s antipathy is hard to miss. Once again, is it any wonder why many guys, myself included, are severely disinclined to walk through the minefield jokingly called dating?

    Reply

    • I don’t think you guys are trying to hear that a great many of us as guys don’t face a whole lot of hate from women. If you’re getting openly vitriolic reactions from women on a regular basis that’s completely within your control to fix. Promise.

      Reply

  106. Mickey

    “I don’t think you guys are trying to hear that a great many of us as guys don’t face a whole lot of hate from women.”

    I don’t think it’s that so much as guys just can’t relate. Unfortunately, meeting women has become a zero-sum game. For every guy who’s successful at meeting women, there’s any number of guys who can’t get the time of day from women.

    In addition, it’s a little tough to relate to the so-called “fair sex” when, again, women are so open in their hostility to men. This again shows that many men are completely alienated when it comes to the opposite sex.

    Reply

    • We’re pretty much commenting in circles, Mickey. “Zero-sum” is in the eyes of the beholder. And I have to tell you, it’s gotten better for me over the years not worse, despite whatever claims are made with regard to extreme feminism. I and the guys I’ve coached in field just don’t experience it. Either that, or we get over it and succeed despite it.

      Reply

  107. Garry

    Question for the guys who run up against lots of radical feminism, fem nazis, blatant hostility to men, etc . . . are you finding most of this from reading web sites and ivory tower academia, or do you experience in your day to day lives with women you date, female friends, women you work with, female relatives, etc?

    Even during my lowest times in dating, after my divorce when I was able to form friendships with women, (not friend traps, some of those friendships were very much friends with benefits) but I couldn’t generate the kind of desire in a woman to match what I hoped for from her, wasn’t able to get take it to an ongoing relationship (bought Scot’s ‘Leading Man’ and ‘Master Plan’ to help me figure out where I was coming up short). What I was seeing again and again in my life with the women I knew was that they very much wanted a man in their life who’d make them feel move alive, wanted it with an almost feral intensity. I had women that I was casual with take our thing down a notch when they met a man who ignited something larger in them.(and no, these weren’t b*tches who cheated on me, but involvements that hadn’t become committed) I didn’t lose out because those women hated men, I lost out because those women wanted some other man.

    Sure, there are women who’ll screw a man over, same as there are men who give women black eyes and broken ribs. Yet even many of those women, the ones who take out restraining orders on their exs because they fear for their safety, continue trying to find a good man.

    Reply

    • Mickey

      Garry: That is an excellent, legitimate question. My answer, based on my past experience is basically all of the above. The man-hate out there is all too pervasive, and the fervent practitioners of that man-hate are a dime a dozen. I have personally known women who would stick their faces in acid before giving any man the benefit of the doubt.

      Reply

  108. [...] need only rifle through the hundreds of comments on this other post to sense the raw force of the vitriol out there. The prevailing question is, “Why endure losing [...]

    Reply

  109. Reality

    Well now that so many Career women have their high paying job today, many of them are so very high maintenance, independent, selfish, spoiled, greedy, and very money hungry, which really speaks for itself why so many of us Good men are still Single today.

    Reply

    • Mickey

      Reality:

      I’ll only add that it doesn’t make a difference whether women have a law degree or a high school equivalency: Hostile is Hostile is Hostile.

      Reply

      • G

        I agreed with you, Mickey. I will add it doesn’t make a difference whether a woman is white or some other racial group. I have seen it from all racial groups of women regarding hostility from them. In addition, I have seen it from young teenager girls to ladies in their old age.

        Reply

      • G

        I am also seeing hostility from not only middle age and older women but also from young women just barely out of high school/college.

        Reply

        • You guys…if you’re sensing hostility from EVERY woman, regardless of age, socio-ethic group, etc. then you’ve got a universal pattern there. When that’s going on there’s only one common denominator, and that’s YOU.

          I realize this is tough love, guys, but it’s time to look in the mirror. If you’re seeing such consistent negative response from fellow human beings, regardless of gender, you’re leading into it.

          Reply

          • Mickey

            Scot:

            I’m speaking only for myself here: I’m looking at this from a non-approaching standpoint. First, I’ve seen too many women cut guys off at the knees just for the fun of, and then get their equally man-hating friends to pile on and just embarrass the hell out of some poor soul who bothered to approach.

            Secondly, you are as aware as I am of the zillion blogs, websites, articles, etc. that scream from the rooftops how despicable guys are.

            The point is, it isn’t always one attracting the bad apples as it were. One can just look around to see the culturally sanctioned misandry all over the place. Thus, the idea of reaching the unreachable rings hollow yet again, doesn’t it?

          • Quote: “First, I’ve seen too many women cut guys off at the knees just for the fun of, and then get their equally man-hating friends to pile on and just embarrass the hell out of some poor soul who bothered to approach.”

            Mickey, I’ve been a dating coach working in-field with men for over ten years. I’ve never even once seen that happen.

            If you’ve seen “too many” of those instances and I’ve seen zero, that cannot simply be dumb luck.

            But you’re right. I’m definitely attempting to reach the unreachable here.

          • Quote: “First, I’ve seen too many women cut guys off at the knees just for the fun of, and then get their equally man-hating friends to pile on and just embarrass the hell out of some poor soul who bothered to approach.”

            Mickey, I’ve been a dating coach working in-field with men for over ten years. I’ve never even once seen that happen.

            If you’ve seen “too many” of those instances and I’ve seen zero, that cannot simply be dumb luck.

            But you’re right. I’m definitely attempting to reach the unreachable here.

          • G

            “You guys…if you’re sensing hostility from EVERY woman, regardless of age, socio-ethic group, etc. then you’ve got a universal pattern there. When that’s going on there’s only one common denominator, and that’s YOU.”

            I do not actively look for hostility from women. The women are the ones that are always displaying hostility whether you did anything wrong or not and that is the universal pattern that I get from them. Too many women are so thin-skinned these days over everything and anything.

            I also agreed with Mikey about how women love to embarrassed and humiliated men especially in public or at the workplace and get their women friends involved in the act.

  110. Mickey

    Scot, when you have a couple of generations (at least) of women who are firmly convinced men are just no good, there’s nothing either one of us can say or do that will convince them otherwise. I first learned this when I was only 12 years old, and gender relations have only gotten worse since then. It only becomes worthless to engage the enemy camp; thus I keep my distance.

    Sadly, I must admit, that you and I will never come to a meeting of the minds on this.

    Reply

    • Not as long as you see women as the “enemy”, we won’t.

      You MGTOW guys are looking for trouble, and you’re finding what you’re looking for.

      Leadership.

      Meanwhile, the women in my life are generally sweet, adorable and will do anything for me.

      Again…leadership.

      Reply

      • G

        No it is the women who are the ones that are looking for trouble and don’t know when to stop looking for trouble, and then whine and cried when they are caught doing their evil action. In addition, it is the women who want to go their own way (that in itself is not bad); however, they don’t want to compromise and like to have it both ways.

        Reply

      • Mickey

        1) Any otherwise nondescript work conversation can be twisted into a sexual harassment claim.

        2) A guy could try to say hello, or even accidently bump into a woman on a crowded train and be accused of attempted rape.

        3)You said yourself that social engineering has resulted in guys being actively discouraged from even looking mildly admiringly at a woman.

        4) Again, as I alluded to earlier, many women cop an attitude that “I am hot, but YOU can’t have me.”

        Put all that together, and one doesn’t have to look all that hard for “trouble”, as you called it. The man-hate is all over the place and the most vitriolic practitioners of that man-hate are a dime a dozen.

        Reply

        • 1) But 99.99999% of them don’t.
          2) That has never happened to you or anyone you know. Admit it.
          3) Agreed. But that’s not the fault of the majority of women.
          4) Well, SOMEONE is having them. You’ve got seven billion humans on planet Earth.

          You can find any vice or problem that you’d like if you go looking for it.

          Reply

          • Mickey

            Quote: “Well, SOMEONE is having them. You’ve got seven billion humans on planet Earth.”

            Question: How exactly does one find the time to canvas 3.5 billion women on planet Earth to find…THE ONE?

          • You’ve got to be kidding me. Are you being serious right now?

            After all the vitriol you’ve contributed to this topic, you believe you have one “soulmate”?

  111. Mickey

    G: Everything you’ve said is spot on. I have nothing to add.

    Reply

  112. Kevin

    http://www.girlsaskguys.com/flirting/q1917753-should-men-stop-approaching-women-in-public-altogether
    From the Girls Ask Guys website , noticed most female respondents do NOT want men to approach them & also a lot of female upvotes to the ” I hate men approaching me ” type comments. I have linked this blog to GaG , many members of both genders have found this blog very interesting !!

    Reply

    • This is actually VERY interesting.

      First off, I’m interpreting the responses VERY differently than you are. The women are clearly saying that it’s all about how we as men approach, but most of us don’t “get it”. Read the women’s comments again, and you’ll see that there’s a MASSIVE difference in how they feel depending on the guy’s demeanor. Basically, this is a referendum to the effect of, “Would you like people who are rude and pushy to stay away from you?” Of course, the answers are predictable. By the way, you can see from the male responses that some guys are probably getting the negative results they deserve out there.

      Another important factor to note is how the question was worded. The term “approach” has a sterile connotation, at best, if not downright PUA-ish. Then, the description projects threat/annoyance on the respondents. This is exactly how polls get manipulated, so in a very real way it’s amazing there were as many positive responses as there were. Think, for example, if someone asked, “Should we vote for that greedy idiot Donald Trump, or someone with enough public experience to effectively run the country like Ted Cruz?” Now, imagine the same question worded as, “Should we vote for a lying Washington crony like Ted Cruz, or a proven business leader with a backbone and fresh ideas like Donald Trump?”

      Actually, I’m tempted to write a question on that site as follows: “Wouldn’t it be great if a guy manned-up and boldly introduced himself like a gentleman, sweeping you off your feet in a ‘movie moment’?”

      Reply

      • Kevin

        You are right , Scot , I stand corrected , I am guilty of skimming through these comments without pausing for thought ( haven’t we all done this !! ) I saw the post & thought of this blog post straight away. Still the vast majority of guys will NEVER cold approach , let’s be real here , mainly due to BS ” social conditioning ” as previously discussed.

        Reply

        • That’s very true. It’s a combination of fear of rejection and, yes, fear of bothering women.

          Reply

        • Garry

          Good link.

          I think approach anxiety is a very human trait that goes beyond social situations. I’m in sales and the bulk of what I’ve seen PUA’s teach about combating AA is largely the same stuff that has been used in sales training for generations.

          Bottom line for being able to comfortably approach in a sales situation is a sincere conviction that the product will benefit the customer. LOT easier to start things off if a rep believes ‘I can improve this person’s situation’ than ‘I can get a commission if I can sling enough BS’.

          In a social situation our ‘product’ is ourselves. When I read Scot’s Deserve What You Want I hear it as ‘Have a Good Product’. All the techniques and game in the world won’t make approach easy for decent people if they don’t believe they can offer the woman at least as much as they’re hoping to get from her.

          But even when a guy offers quality it’s a challenge. In a business situation I can have the best widget on the market and know I can improve a prospect’s operations, but the awareness still creeps into my mind that she’s likely satisfied with her current widget situation and she may have a dozen things on her plate more pressing than being approached by another %&#*$# widget salesman. To do a cold approach I need to hush some of that and understand that there’s a decent chance she’ll be receptive to exploring how she can benefit from a better widget.

          In a social situation I think the hurdle is the belief that a woman is so focused on buying her groceries and getting out of the store and on to the next thing on her agenda that she just doesn’t want to deal with meeting a new guy.I think a lot of us as men, even if we don’t put women on pedestals, believe that single women are so self contained and satisfied in their lives that any effort on a guy’s part is an intrusion.

          And it’s a hellish thing to believe. Has scared me crapless at times. In a strictly business environment I can cold approach a woman as readily as a man, take her to lunch, build rapport, close, get referrals, the whole nine yards. But to do the same thing socially, even though the social goal is a smaller thing (3-4 hours of her time for an evening date vs. $3-4k of her boss’s money) it feels like so much more is at stake. Sure, there’s less at stake for her, but for me there is a lot more. She’s not saying no to my product, but to me.

          Reply

      • Mickey

        “Be a gentleman.” “Be civilized” Yeah, sure. Could it be possible that this too is just one more smokescreen that really means “Don’t freakin’ bother me?”

        Reply

        • Or, Mickey, it could mean “be civilized” and “be a gentleman”. Read it. They freaking made the distinction themselves in their answers.

          But ultimately, you’re still only looking at a tiny sampling of women who responded to a loaded question, so the whole thing is moot.

          Reply

  113. Mickey

    “After all the vitriol you’ve contributed to this topic, you believe you have one ‘soulmate’?

    Scot: I never used the word soulmate. Even if I had, it still begs the question: if the odds are so great of finding AT LEAST ONE out of 3.5 billion women for a potential relationship, how exactly does one canvas a population that big???

    P.S. What you claim to be vitriol is nothing more than another man’s realism. Oh well…

    Reply

    • Quote: “the odds are so great of finding AT LEAST ONE out of 3.5 billion”

      Come on, Mickey. You’ve just made my point for me.

      And if you don’t think what you’re saying with regard to male/female relationships is vitriolic, then there’s no explaining to you why you’re having such a hard time finding women who are nice to you.

      Reply

  114. Ray

    I’m 26 and have been told I’m beautiful and gorgeous even by plastic surgeons but I feel invisible to men. I’m naturally thin and curvy and people think I am 18-20. I am started to get depressed. Once in a blue moon I’ll get a comment like “wow you are beautiful” but 99% of the time it’s like guys go out of their way to not look at me. I see guys checking out average looking girls all the time and ignoring me.

    Reply

    • Garry

      You may have hit the nail on the head with ‘people think I am 18-20′ . . . guys in their mid 20s to early 30s may think you’re just out of high school and pass you by without realizing that you’re older and at a place in your life more on par with their own.

      Reply

      • I used to routinely date women who still got legitimately carded everywhere they went, yet who were 30-35. Most indeed had a hard time getting attention from men even close to their own age, who thought they were REALLY young…perhaps even underage.

        The profile for such a woman is typically petite, terminally cute, very feminine, bubbly and of course looking healthy and well-kept. Online dating is typically the answer for them, by the way.

        Reply

  115. Al

    What’s there to be surprised about? Women aren’t worth paying attention to.

    Nevermind that if you happen to glance over at one, there’s a good chance you’ll end up getting charged with sexual harassment.

    If you actually date one, she’ll use you for your resources, then go screw Chad when you aren’t looking.

    If you’re dumb enough to marry one, there’s a 90% chance she’ll leave you within 5 years, take the kids, the house, cash and prizes, plus 18 years of child support and vaginamoney for your trouble.

    Forget women.

    MGTOW

    Reply

    • Out of curiosity, how many of you MGTOWs have daughters?

      Reply

      • Al

        I know there are at least a few. Was reading a post from a MGTOW with an 11 year old daughter earlier today – he was asking how to prevent her from growing up and destroying men’s lives like the vast majority of them.

        From the details in his story about her, she was already well on her way (a skilled manipulator of boys, at just 11). It’s in their nature.

        Reply

        • You see, the baseline problem with the MGTOW point of view is women inherently follow a man’s lead. Therefore, the mindset becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

          Essentially a reaction to female hatred of men, all MGTOW does is validate and perpetuate the cycle of disconnection between genders. Men aren’t born to follow, we’re born to lead, provide and protect.

          So then, that little girl is watching and learning. There is REAL value in having a dad around in a daughter’s life, yet the MGTOW mindset would bankrupt it, if not pervert and distort it completely.

          Were he to lead by respecting, protecting and honoring women, her feminine nature would understand the value of respecting, honoring and appreciating men.

          Try it sometime. It’s amazingly effective, but you have to have the balls to lead…literally.

          Reply

          • Al

            Therein lies the problem. Women have rejected – wholesale – men’s natural inclination to lead, protect and honor women. They claim it’s insulting and degrading. They yell “patriarchy!” and decry it as a form of violence against women. “Microaggression” I believe is the buzzword of the day. In schools and universities across the nation girls and boys are taught that men are all rapists. Boys are brainwashed into believing masculinity is something to be ashamed of.

            Do you have a fix for that?

            You’re right when you say men are born to lead. And we are leading. Leading by example and rejecting the system that brought us here.

            MGTOW.

          • The first logical fallacy you’re purporting is the assumption that women in general have taken a negative view of men. That’s no more the case than all men being of the MGTOW persuasion.

            Further, “rejecting the system that brought us here” is a reaction, not a proaction. You have a problem, but no solution. That’s inherently the opposite of leadership.

            I mean, you’ve even looked to me for an answer of how to fix your problem.

            And I’ll oblige you.

            The solution is to be a “big four” man who deserves what he wants and thereby challenges the assumptions of the bitter, broken women who you “reject”.

            Wallow in schadenfreude if you will, but bitter, negative men have been wishing an ignominious end to the blissful relationship my wife and I share for ten years now. And beyond that I enjoy the nearly universal favor of women everywhere I go, all over the world.

            Sorry MGTOWs, but my solution works. You have to bury your head in the sand vis-a-vis reality to deny it.

            My edumckayted guess is that too many “rejections” from women has precipitated it, and now you “reject” women in return. Again…that’s following, not leadership.

            Get outside the groupthink-driven bubble of your own MGTOW forum, stop purposely Googling extremist man-haters and you’ll perhaps see the forest for the trees and put aside your cognitive dissonance.

            Now, if you’ll excuse me, my wife and I are going to put our kids to bed and share some “quality time”. It’s kind of nice. You should grant yourself the freedom to try it sometime.

            Signed,

            #MTOGW (Men Turning On Great Women)

    • Garry

      Which country are you speaking of IRT 90% of all marriages ending within 5 years?

      Can you provide a link to your source?

      Reply

    • Mickey

      Yes, Al, you are so right. Trying to relate to the so-called “fair-sex” is 100% risk and 0% benefit. So, what self-respecting guy in his right mind would sign up for the hosing that is sure to come?

      Reply

      • For once, we agree. It absolutely is 0% benefit for guys with an attitude like that.

        Reply

        • Mickey

          Yet, the “fair sex” can do no wrong. Sorry, but I’m not buying.

          Reply

          • Stop prooftexting my comments. You’re talking to a man who had a very unfortunate first marriage, yet overcame. I have never said women “can do no wrong”, but rather accept the simple fact that humans of both genders can be either black hearted or golden hearted. The truth is that most of us are more “grey hearted”. What, are you purporting that ALL men are angels, even as you say that most women are demons?

        • Mickey

          Still, the so-called fair sex will fall over themselves to vilify and demonize men just for being men. Yet, the fair sex can never do any wrong. Sorry, Scot: that dog just won’t hunt.

          Reply

      • Al

        Well, none.

        Unfortunately, people such as Scot here can’t understand that. To his credit, he comes from a different paradigm; he’s in a happy and successful marriage – essentially a statistical deviation from the norm. How could he understand?

        Instead, people such as him prefer to think of those of us who can “see the forest for the trees” as being unemployed losers, unable to attract women, who live in our mothers basements playing video games and wanking off to porn all day. I suppose it helps people like him cope. Who knows.

        And really, who cares.

        Reply

        • First Al, be a man and address me directly. I’m right here, and you know it. If you want to debate with me, earn my respect and come at me with real, viable logic. Don’t appeal to your #MGTOW buddies to bail you out.

          Second, obviously *you* care. I’m the OP, and you are responding to MY content and to MY my ensuing comments. Man up and engage the conversation that you’ve already chosen to embark upon. To quote Don Corleone, “Act like a man!”

          Third, educate yourself about my history before you assume I’m disconnected from the hardship men honestly face in relating to women in the post-modern world. In my first marriage I got pwned, surely enough. But rather than being a victim, I TOOK MY POWER BACK and asserted my rights and privileges as the King and Emperor of my own reality. Booyah! And my new wife ADORES me for it. She feels safe, protected, provided for, and leads a fulfilling life with her cart hitched to my wagon. And yes, she’s reading this.

          Case in point: I ask any man-bashing 3rd waver if she’s off on a 8-country international safari next month with her kids along. If so…if she’s willing to go to freaking Ethiopia, Jordan, Kuwait, Capodocia and The Caucasus for five honkin’ weeks without a guy leading her, is she completely outfitted from head to toe with cute-as-shit hiking and safari gear? Is she getting her hair and nails done before she leaves, just because her boy loves the shit outta how she looks? Is she bangin’ his brains out nightly just because he deserves it for his generosity?

          I know my wife just LOVES me and my ideas, and is 100% on board with whatever I decide. And yes, my homeschooled (by my wife) kids are stoked beyond belief to have me as their Dad.

          Lookit, if any dimwit PUA wants to come try to steal my wife from me (i.e. cuckold me), he can bring his A-game…and eat shit. I’ll announce publicly that I’ll pay him $100,000 USD if he’s successful. Bring it, bitches.

          Meanwhile, if my dear, sweet wife is EVER foolish enough to leave this utopia I’ve prepared for her and her young beloved ones, there’s the f-ing door. I’ll be on Tinder by later tonight. But if you think either of us are that ridiculously stupid, guess again. It’s NOT going to happen.

          Finally, check yourself before making gross assumptions about my intentions. I’ve neither called any of you MGTOW guys names nor disrespected your right to succeed and prosper. Far be it from me to assume I can continue to change lives as I’ve had for over a decade by labeling men “losers” and giving up on them. I teach by virtue of what I believe, and I am passionately convinced that our attitude and leadership mean EVERYTHING when attracting and charming women.

          Reply

          • Al

            Well Scot, I really would have “manned up” and replied to your last comment directly, but you disabled the reply option ;)

            Oops!

            Look, I respect your opinion, and I’m happy things have worked out for you in the family department. Really I am. And kudos to you and the wife for avoiding the systemic brainwashing by home schooling your kids – if I had ever had any, I would have done the same. I’m sure there are a lot of men out there who would benefit from your advice.

            I’ve never had a problem with attracting women. But for too many reasons to get into, I decided – a long, long time ago, to go my own way. I made my choice, and I’m happy with that choice.

            To each their own.

            Best,
            Al

          • Hey Al, I didn’t intentionally disable “reply” capability. I’ll check into that.

  116. Mickey

    Scot: as much as you speak of “leadership”, let me ask this: is it really a failure of leadership to have the good sense to walk away from a game one has no realistic chance of winning?

    Reply

    • I won. What’s your point? Are you less of a man than I? Even I don’t believe that for a second, as long as YOU don’t either.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        All I’m saying is that some guys are more fortunate than others in the dating minefield. And it’s frustrating for normal guys to know that they bring a great deal to the table only to be rebuffed again and again. Nonstop.

        Reply

  117. mkhululi

    I dont know, I’ve been ignoring contact with women these days. and it sucks. i gotta man up, creep status and all

    Reply

    • @mkhululi, don’t EVER let one (or a few women) define you as a “creep”. Redefine and reframe yourself as the man women want any enjoy their favor. You can do this!

      Reply

  118. Mickey

    “Prooftexting” Scot? Really? The same way I have never alleged that we as men are perfect, I certainly never suggested that you believe that women can do no wrong. That said, even you have to admit that there is a perception out there that suggests: women = good, men = evil.

    Reply

    • Yes, in all fairness I acknowledge that, and have written in response to it.

      Nevertheless, it feels good as a man to make a stand in opposition to such generalizations from angry, misguided women. They are WRONG. We as men are NOT all worthless, mysoginist jerks. Represent the solution rather than the problem and be the hero to the good, honorable women everywhere who simply want their “real men” back.

      Reply

      • Kevin

        Interestingly quite a few of my female friends & colleagues recognize that the ” media ” is anti-male & does have an effect on the female psyche , even my own 9 year old daughter commented ” On TV boys & men are made to look stupid & gross , while girls are always the smart ones !! ” That speaks volumes , my children watch very little TV fortunately & I’m happy with that !!

        Reply

        • Garry

          Your daughter sounds observant and sharp. I think you’re onto something that there are certain roles , or as Carl Jung would put it, archetypes, that TV comedies seem to want to assign to men only. Goes all the way back to The Three Stooges and Laurel & Hardy. There has never been a female counterpart to those concepts. Closest TV may have ever come to a female counterpoint to the Stooges was some of the physical comedy of I Love Lucy. But even when Lucy and Ethel would need bailing out by Ricky and Fred, the latter two often seemed more overwhelmed by what their wives had gotten themselves into than the female characters themselves were. In some ways that has become the mold for many sitcom families. Heck, it was even how the cartoon version of the Flinstones worked.

          When Normal Lear tried to make sitcomes more topical and had them tackle social issues of the day, the female characters were presented in the more positive light. Even Edith Bunker, she with the IQ of a stale carrot, got the Big Stuff right more often than not. Archie could be a bigot, but Lear didn’t push the envelope to the point of creating a female bigot as the centerpiece of a comedy. Sitcoms are more comfortable putting the joke on male characters than female ones.

          All of that said, such things seem limited to sitcoms. There are plenty of strong and admirable male characters in TV dramas. TV and film doesn’t run on a premise that men need to look bad in order for a show or movie to strike a cord with an audience. There are still plenty of male heros and they’re popular with men and women.

          Moving from TV to other entertainment forms . . . lets consider the reaction of many readers to the publication of Harper Lee’s ‘Set A Watchman’. Atticus Finch was a beloved character in ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’, beloved for his personal courage, sense of justice, for simply having the balls to take an unpopular stand for what he believed was right. In ‘Watchman’ he was presented as a very different character, a broken contemptible one. People who had fondness for the high character Atticus of Mockingbird had a difficult time seeing this other iteration of him. Audiences still want heroic male figures, and few people seemed to like seeing Finch diminished as he was in Watchman.

          Look at male characters in series fiction who are the subjects of books the consistently hit the best seller lists; James Lee Burke’s Dave Robicheaux, Michael Connelly’s Harry Bosch, and so on. These are strong heroic men who are nobody’s fool and nobody’s stooge. And women buy those books in droves. Speaking of series fiction, Robert Parker’s Spenser presents a very positive male lead, and Parker’s book ‘Looking For Rachel Wallace’ which has Spenser doing bodyguard work for controversial feminist writer Rachel Wallace is a great exploration of a very positive model of masculinity in close quarters with radical feminism. One of the better explorations of that theme I’ve seen anywhere. Parker was an immensely skilled artist and he was able to give a fair hearing to Wallace as a ‘man hater’ without compromising the integrity of Spenser’s masculinity.

          TV sitcoms can be a poor vehicle for positive male images, but other entertainment forms continue to churn out male characters that teenage boys can look to for broadly defined positive masculinity. Men who lead, protect, and are competent across a full spectrum of life

          Reply

          • Kevin

            Thanks Garry , will check out some of those books mentioned in your 3rd paragraph , I haven’t watched TV for at least 7 years & as a single dad I most definitely have to lead from the front , I have to shrug off anti male sexism on a nearly daily basis , I have used Scot’s excellent Female Persuasion to turn the tables in a good way on hostile women , whereas my less educmckayted self would have launched an angry verbal salvo at them( men are always assumed to be sex crazed perverts )

          • I’ve written in the past that The Honeymooners, a very early model of the sitcom format, was at least near the origin of this phenomenon back in the early TV days of the late ’40s. Big old Jackie Gleason bumbling when the chips were down only to have his wife bail everyone out with level-headed action was very much ironic humor at the time. The problem was the formula worked so magnificently that it was widely copied. The Flintstones came up, which was actually heavily influenced by The Honeymooners.

            If you watch the media with a less jaundiced eye nowadays, however, you’re starting to see the playing field level out to be more “equal opportunity”. There are even moments where the woman is portrayed quite negatively in commercials as men historically have been for the past couple of decades. The “Jake from State Farm” commercial springs to mind, which has been aired heavily for at least three years now, meaning that it most surely has been proven to convert.

          • Garry

            One of my favorite phrases, lead from the front, or ‘can’t lead from behind’

    • For what it’s worth, you’ve linked me with the phrase “the ‘fair sex’ can do no wrong” at least twice in your previous comments.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        Scot:

        You’re right; I’ve used the words the “fair sex can do no wrong” a couple of times. I said that in the context of the seemingly overriding perception that women = good and men = evil.

        That said, I can certainly understand where you’re coming from in suggesting that I linked you with the idea that women can do no wrong.

        That was never my intention. Although our differences here are probably irreconcilable, I do humbly apologize for this particular misunderstanding.

        Reply

        • No worries. But yeah, you guys aren’t going to convince guys like me who love and enjoy women (and vice-versa) to take your negative viewpoint. We have nothing to gain by agreeing with you. Frankly, your position represents despair for most men, not something to aspire to and celebrate. I realize that may sound rough, but it is what it is.

          It’s like when guys write me attempting to convince me of 101 reasons why guys under six feet tall don’t attract women and how I’m wrong/manipulative/lying/etc. for suggesting otherwise. I’d have to deny the reality that’s in my plain sight to agree with them, and for what…to join them in being bitter, miserable and alone?

          Reply

          • Mickey

            A large part of the chasm between guys who have been successful with women and guys who have not is…once again… the experience factor. Again, I take my hat off to you for overcoming a toxic marriage and attaining the bliss you enjoy today. As pointed out in another post, you come from a different paradigm based on your experience and results…which unfortunately is not the same as the one many of us, myself included, have to wrestle with, and not always for a lack of trying.

            In football terms, our little discourse would be similar to a debate between a guy who has won a couple of Super Bowls and a guy who has never finished higher than last. So on one side you have the Peyton Manning/Tom Brady/John Elway/Jim Plunkett championship class, and on the other side you have the JaMarcus Russell/Marc Wilson/Ryan Leaf/Gino Torretta draft bust crowd.

          • AND…the reason those guys failed wasn’t for lack of talent, or experience for that matter.

            Often it was mindset and attitude. The winners were coachable, had the right work ethic and weren’t easily deterred.

            Sure, there were injuries and rotten luck associated with being on the wrong teams with the wrong coaching, front office and/or other players around them.

            But back in the context that’s relevant to the discussion at hand, “experience and results” are quite often directly impacted by mindset and attitude.

          • Garry

            You mentioned Jim Plunket as part of a championship class, which is true . . but don’t overlook the role that attitude played in his getting great results . . the Patriots decided they wanted no more of him because they were enamored with Steve Grogan so they traded him to SF . . after 2 seasons SF didn’t want anymore of him because they didn’t think he was very good so they cut him . . the Raiders picked him up but in his first season in Oakland they didn’t let him on the field and in his second season he seldom played. The Raiders liked having him around, but to use relationship parlance they ‘friend trapped’ him . .and in the off season following his second year when they wanted a different starting QB they overlooked him and traded with Houston for Pasterini . . .kept Plunket on the bench, yeah they liked having him around, but he wasn’t getting in their pants, I mean in their huddle . . .Plunket could have said ‘screw it, no chance for me to ever get my hands around a nice firm Super Bowl trophy’, but he didn’t, and when Pasterini broke his leg it was game on . . .2 championships in 4 years. But that was after he went through a world of sh*t, rejection, being booed, ridiculed, and all the rest. . . .yet when he took the field after Pasterini’s injury in 1980 he had a different game than he’d had up unitl 1977, smarter, more under control, much more nuanced in the way he played his position.

  119. Edgar

    no surprise here, Men are too afraid to talk to women at work (men are always found guilty). I just stopped wanting to date, way too much anxiety, leave me alone with my Internet porn and I behave perfectly around real women.

    Reply

  120. theyre_everywhere

    Hot women are everywhere these days. By the time you reach your 30s(like myself) a typical hot girl for instance doesn’t even make your head turn anymore. However if she was really different and even more hotter than typical hot girl, I still take a few seconds to look, but again its usually she has more than normal big boobs and ass and really really nice curves(thats my taste atleast). It’s just when you reach a certain age in your life, like many things in life, you start to become very passive to them. It’s so normal and exhausted at a certain point, it doesn’t catch your attention as much anymore.

    Reply

    • theyre_everywhere

      Also forgot to mention few other things:

      1) straight men who are passive towards hot girls are either:
      a) to experienced with them
      b) fed up with them, or gave up lol
      c) in general see them all the time and are
      passive towards them.

      2) women have become soo annoying and self-entitled these days and all want hot bad boys, that the rest of the guys are getting sick of them at an early age. I mean most guys just go to strip clubs or places of such to get it out their system, and its way more peaceful and better this way.

      At the end of the day, we all want attention from hot people and bragging rights more so than actually enjoying having sex with them. Sex is pleasurable even if the girl is not totally hot lol. Hot women are just for attention and bragging rights if anything.

      Reply

  121. Morpheus

    I don’t look at women as much as I used to. I used to chat them up, I no longer do this. I used to go to clubs and chase them, I no longer do this. I used to ask them out on dates, I no longer do this.

    The juice is not worth the squeeze and the vast majority of them have slept around too much, have very little personality, nothing interesting to say, not much to offer and yet still expect you to do all of the work.

    I have better things to do with my time now.

    Reply

  122. j walter

    Females aren’t really worth it anymore.

    Reply

  123. Edgar

    Interesting comments and I sort of agree with most of them. I’m a single male, over 50 and not in a relationship and don’t date and don’t want to. Men have been hammered by HR about sexual harassment and ANYTHING that makes the woman uncomfortable is SEXUAL HARRASSMENT, so if I look at a woman and she looks back at me annoyed, that’s borderline sexual harassment. So I couldn’t date anyone who worked at my company or for a vendor that did business with us and the years flew by. I didn’t look at a woman in my neighborhood, because looking/staring is considered harassment and I was called creepy once which was enough. Since the workplace is where I spend 10 to 12 hours a day (we also have a gym), I’m too old & exhausted after to go “shopping” after. I don’t trust Internet dating and am old fashioned that I believed in being friends with a woman first. So I simply masturbate daily using free online porn. I consider it a bodily function like going the bathroom, no more, no less. Besides, women have never been attracted to me ‘that way’ since I was a tween (I’m too quiet, nice or too valuable a friend for that, whatever), so I don’t waste my time pursuing anymore. I enjoy my female friends company and they enjoy me NOT hitting on them, but that’s it. Too many diseases out there anyway. Too many bitter women my age too. I go to the gym 5 nights a week to get rid of stress and to stay healthy. In the gym, sometimes when I pick a focus point to exercise with, a woman nearby interprets that as I’m staring in her direction, I’m usually met with an angry stare or she makes snide comment which reinforces my reluctance to even say anything other than hi & bye. Outside, On rare occasions, I have even told aggressive drunk women I’m gay to avoid explaining why I’m really not interested. Divorce laws still favor women overwhelmingly which thank god I’ve never had to experience myself.
    I never found women wanting to be in a relationship so it’s not their fault either. Real women have a hard time competing with Internet Porn. Internet Porn doesn’t talk back or give you a hard time after LOL.
    I think everyone has their own reasons and these are mine. I don’t hurt anyone and I’m happy.

    Reply

    • Mickey

      Edgar: I understand completely. 100% risk and 0% benefit.

      Reply

      • I would disagree profoundly with the “0%” benefit part. All of you #MGTOW guys need to understand that relating to women and selecting the right ones is a learned skill.

        Reply

        • Mickey

          I couldn’t disagree more. All the learned skill in the world doesn’t change the fact that many women are just plain unapproachable at best, and more likely hostile.

          Reply

          • Well, as I’ve had to reiterate here probably a dozen times now (still to no avail)…your attitude toward women–and the leadership you show accordingly—are what matter most. Without that any skills you learn don’t matter diddly-squat.

            Question: If you guys have all “gone your own way”, how and why are you spending SO much time feeding your ire? I mean…to keep harping on how much women negatively affect your life isn’t exactly “going your own way”, is it? It looks to me like the very women you can’t stand are still holding a lot of power over you.

            I mean, I’ve “gone my own way” from Heroin and robbing banks myself, so you don’t see me hanging out on forums about that stuff and getting all bent out of shape over it.

            Essentially, Mickey, all of you guys are blatantly advertising your disappointment and hurt. You’re not “going away” from women at all. So why not take some semblance of personal responsibility, get your power back and lead in a way such that you can finally experience the joy and fulfillment with women that you so very diligently wish to discredit?

            I’m not “special”. If a guy like me can do this, so can you. But yes, attitude, leadership and skill all matter here.

    • Garry

      You wrote something that resonates strongly with me “I believed in being friends with a woman first.” It’s something that I long told myself I believed, but I found I wasn’t being fully honest when I claimed it. Maybe it meant something different to me than it does you.

      For me, I think there was a Trogan Horse element to it. I’d meet a woman and think ‘I’d like to have something with her’. That ‘something’ could more readily be characterized as girlfriend’ than ‘friend’, but I wouldn’t acknowledge it as such. My mindset was ‘get to know each other, be at my best, and if she likes me a lot, then we’ll take it to a relationship’

      The problem I found was that later attempts to transition to something more than friends were more difficult than if I’d clearly targeted something more from the getgo.

      Based on my experiences with women, if we lead her to think of us as having a specific role in her life it can be difficult to shift that perception later. Holds true even if the relationship adds a sexual component. She can end up asking herself ‘what am I doing sleeping with him? He’s my friend.’ Rather than fully embracing the evolution she will spend time questioning herself ‘why am I wanting to date my friend? What’s up with that?’

      We arrive at what we spent months hoping for and for us the mood is celebratory, for her it can be confusing. So what happens then? She pauses things so she can sort it out in her head, but we’ve throttled up and want to keep running wide open. For us there is no ‘do we need to ease back to protect the friendship?’ because the friendship was a means to an end. The butterfly doesn’t care about preserving the chrysalis.

      I think for every woman who uses ‘I don’t want to risk our friendship’ as an indirect way of saying ‘I’m just not into you’, there is another woman who is remembering the time when she romped in the hay with a male friend and watched things get weird afterward.

      Reply

  124. Mickey

    Scot: You have claimed ad-infinitum that the antipathy toward men is the result of an extremely loud vocal minority. For what it’s worth, here are some musings I stumbled across from the man-hate practitioners that suggest misandry is alive and well…and picking up speed…and practiced by far more than just a vocal minority.

    Yet, this is the loving gender with whom we are supposed to live “happily ever after.” Oh well…

    Happy reading.

    “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.”
    ~Robin Morgan, Ms. magazine editor

    “The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist.”
    ~National NOW Times, January 1988

    “Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.”
    ~Catherine Comins, Vassar College, assistant dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52

    “The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.”
    ~Sharon Stone

    “In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.”
    ~Catherine MacKinnon (prominent legal feminist scholar, University of Michigan & Yale University)

    “The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.”
    ~Sally Miller Gearhart

    “All men are rapists and that’s all they are.”
    ~Marilyn French

    “Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.”
    ~Hillary Clinton

    “I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.”
    ~Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan

    Dr. Greer: “I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of the ideal man. As far as I’m concerned, men are the product of a damaged gene. They pretend to be normal but what they’re doing sitting there with benign smiles on their faces is they’re manufacturing sperm. They do it all the time. They never stop. I mean, we women are more reasonable. We pop one follicle every 28 days, whereas they are producing 400 million sperm for each ejaculation, most of which don’t take place anywhere near an ovum. I don’t know that the ecosphere can tolerate it.”

    ~Germaine Greer, at a Hilton Hotel literary lunch, promoting her book The Change: Women, Aging and the Menopause; from a news report dated November 14, 1991

    “How will the family unit be destroyed? … [T]he demand alone will throw the whole ideology of the family into question, so that women can begin establishing a community of work with each other and we can fight collectively. Women will feel freer to leave their husbands and become economically independent, either through a job or welfare.”
    ~Roxanne Dunbar in her essay “Female Liberation as the Basis for Social Revolution”

    “We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.”
    ~Robin Morgan, from Sisterhood Is Powerful (ed.), 1970, p. 537

    “We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men …”
    ~Elizabeth Stanton in One Woman, One Vote, Marjorie Spruille Wheeler (ed.), p. 58

    “Who cares how men feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only comment to men is, if you don’t like it, bad luck—and if you get in my way I’ll run you down.”
    ~Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia; from the Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia, February 9, 1996

    “As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women … he can sexually molest his daughters … THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE.”

    Reply

    • Mickey, you actually wasted time Googling all this until you had the “ammunition” you needed? You’re only proving my point about having NOT “gone your own way”. You’re more obsessed with women than ever.

      Meanwhile, I couldn’t care less what these women say. You’ve found the “Who’s Who” of the vocal minority…and many of THEM can’t even agree with each other. For instance, the idea of women being too weak to offer consent makes the majority of true feminists vomit, and most wish the likes of Mary Daly, Sally Miller Gearhart, etc. would go away because she’s an embarrassment–much in the way David Duke is an embarrassment to white folks. And FWIW, the Hillary comment sort of backfires on you. You might want to take that one out. You also need to be careful with that Marilyn Greer quote because it’s often taken out of context. It was actually uttered by a fictional character in one of her novels. Thinly veiled, I realize, but you may as well hold Chuck Palahniuk responsible for everything Tyler Durden says and does.

      So then, what are you expecting me to do in response? Do you want me to throw a couple dozen quotes at you from women who love men? [Hint: Just go listen to a few of my most recent podcasts with female co-hosts at http://www.thechickwhisperer.com.] What’s that going to prove? You’ll still believe what you want to believe, and all we’ll have to show for it are a couple of dozen quotes.

      Don’t look now, but some man-hater out there is probably quoting guys like you in an effort to “prove” how all men are terrible and de-value women. Thanks a lot. That does a lot to further your cause…let alone mine. It’s just a vicious cycle of hate…and the most insidious part is MGTOW have been reduced to reactive followers. Seriously, how is your anti-woman vitriol any more or less virtuous or justified than the very sputum you published above from hateful, hurt and/or misguided women? Stereotypical generalizations and hate are what they are, regardless of the source and/or what side you’re on…you’re no better.

      I’ve received no suitable answer from your MGTOW ilk, so again I ask you…what do I gain by being persuaded to your position? I’m happily married to my best friend who adores me. We’d do anything for each other. Before her, I dated countless smiling, adorable women who enriched my life insofar as any flawed human being, female or male, can be expected to. Every day I see women and make them smile, earning their favor. Am I to pretend none of that ever happened and resign myself to being bitter, miserable and alone? Your complaints to me are but mental masturbation.

      And lest you forget, I’m indeed a survivor of a disastrous marriage and lots of failure with women in the past. What’s the difference these days? [drum roll] Attitude, leadership and better skills.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        Again, one doesn’t have to look very far to see the mainstream man-hate out there. The few quotes I googled are merely the tip of the iceberg. One can easily find a zillion books, articles that just scream out how men are just plain worthless.

        In this day and age, a guy just can’t do anything right. For example:

        - If a guy notices how well-presented a woman is, she gets mad.

        - If a guy DOESN’T notice how well-presented a woman is, she gets mad.

        - If THE WRONG GUY notices how well-presented a woman is, she gets mad.

        - If a man can’t read a woman’s mind, she gets mad.

        - If a woman asks her significant other “what are you thinking” and he says “nothing”, she gets mad.

        - When a guy asks his significant other if she’s upset about something and she says no, the odds are pretty good that she’s already mad about something he did or didn’t do.

        And so it goes.

        Thus, the next time a woman asks where all the good men are, you could suggest that she ask her man-hating, indoctrinated feminazi sisters, since they’re the ones who pretty much told guys to get lost. Don’t look, don’t touch, don’t approach. That’s what the last couple of generations of social engineering has gotten us.

        Reply

        • Quote: “The next time a woman asks where all the good men are, you could suggest that she ask her man-hating, indoctrinated feminazi sisters, since they’re the ones who pretty much told guys to get lost.”

          Yeah, report back on how well that goes for you, Mickey. You’ll get the response you were leading toward, and then come back to me saying, “See? Women all hate me.”

          Mickey, you don’t have to look very far to find WHATEVER you’re looking for. If you tried finding sweet, kind-hearted women you’d encounter them instead.

          And LOL…by the way, every one of your examples is fixed permanently by: 1) Attitude 2) Skills and 3) Leadership. Seriously, I can tell you that from experience.

          Reply

  125. Paul

    Well now that there are so many women today that have their Careers with their high paying salary which many of them are now so very high maintenance, independent, selfish, spoiled, greedy, picky, and so very money hungry since many of the women today now think that they’re God’s gift to men which their really NOT at all. Quite a Change from the women in the past that were so much Nicer and much Easier to meet compared to these Losers today.

    Reply

  126. JJ

    Who cares what women want or think? They are so annoying and dumb it surprises me people take what they say seriously.

    Reply

  127. Fake name

    Everything changed with the end of machismo and the empowerment of women. (the latter of which I think is a god thing, while the former, I don’t see as a good thing) North American society (not including Mexico) has eliminated the “predator vs. prey” mentality from men’s programming. So men are now confused and as a result many women feel undesirable and unwanted. But trust me all you women out there, you still are as beautiful as ever and very much desirable. Men just don’t know how they can legally let you know it.

    Reply

  128. Kevin

    Could this be the ” fear of approach ” anthem ?? Being a ska fan , a classic track from The Beat ( the English beat to non Brits )

    https://youtu.be/YaQj5s_3WCQ

    Reply

  129. penguin

    What a strange country you must live in.
    Here, we check out attractive women all the time.

    Make it obvious, so they know you are looking at them..

    and be sure to smile.

    They will either turn up their nose, or smile back, as per the last 1000 thousand years.

    Reply

    • penguin

      Watch the movie ‘Scarface’ in the part where ‘Scarface’ is trying to impress the woman he is interested in.

      Watch it over and over until you understand.

      Women may be angry at you, or seem unimpressed or tell you to get lost or call you a looser, or insult you.

      It is not modern social conditioning, it is an ancient test.
      To test if you have BALLS.

      So if you were Scarface, how do you react.. you smile, you are amused, indifferent , you feel slightly sorry for her, because she is only a woman, and Men rule the world.

      Reply

      • Murasaki

        “Men rule the world”

        Really? This is what you believe in 2016?

        Reply

      • Murasaki

        Men like Penguin and the bitter club up above (Mickey and the crew, sigh) is what’s wrong with men today and why women are disgusted at them. We read this shit you type online and generally see these words as part of male-think/ Online comments are unfiltered and usually more honest if not brutally so. In any case, we have men like Penguin that thinks women are weak prey and men run (or should) run everything, and the Bitter Bass Turd Crew that thinks women are the sole reason the world and everything in it sucks, so instead of proclaiming their ‘majestic male power’ (lol) over every every damn thing, these give women sooo much power, that we single handedly jacked the whole world up! Oh my goodness. Men are a riot. It really is all about that lump of flesh in your undergarments, innit? Very little room for shit else. I can’t fathom why women would be off put from such men. It’s not like humans have an aura and intentions/thought can be sensed. Maybe you’re not creepy so much as you are myopic, macho idiots that think the sun is supposed to rise and set on your precious, lint ridden BALLS. Men are so full of themselves.

        Reply

        • Murasaki, you don’t sound any different than they do, except you’re on the female side of the “argument”.

          The bottom line is that members of neither gender are “all the same”. There are perfectly decent, well-meaning men AND women out there.

          But right you are…all the bitter ones do is write their own self-fulfilling prophecies.

          Reply

          • Murasaki

            There was a time that I believed that men were generally good people. I saw it growing up. My uncles were/are good. My dad is a good person. My friend’s fathers were good people. Things seem very different now. Let me distill it to make my point regarding your topic: Most of us women feel like we are not what men want unless we look like a model, supermodel, singer or actress that men lust over. We see what you all lust over. Women (everyday, normal types) want to feel the energy you all are giving to Beyonce, the media harlots and your coveted porn actresses. We are not wrong for wanting that from men, but somewhere down the line, things were severely perverted and it would appear that we are all complicit. No matter who the ‘controllers’ may or may not be. Each member of the public makes a conscious choice to believe or disbelieve the nonsense being peddled these days.

            I understand that a wounded animal will snap at the hand that tries to free it from the trap to remove the thorn. I get the angst of the dudes up here, but can they see the flipside? OUR side? I agree it’s unfair that men are expected to approach, but since it is expected in MOST cultures, can’t they suck it up and try the way we suck it up and try to give a seemingly decent man a fair shake? Despite the fact that men are our #1 predators? I mean really, can you put yourselves in our shoes for just a second? I maybe come a wee bit close to the male ‘ideal’ so far as body type (I’m a nervous and fat phobic cardio junkie and subsist mainly on raw veggies…it’s no humble brag or accomplishment), and I am never or rarely looked at by men that I can detect when I go out, and I consider myself very situationally aware.

            However, I DO see what they approach and gawk at. Generally, this would be cheap, desperate, gaudy looking women with fake hair, fake nails, fake etyelashes, kabuki theater make up, and stank stuck up attitudes. I know a chick that gets more men than a little bit, and you should see her trashy look. It’s amazing. Literally crazy making shit. Then, when it all inevitably falls apart, the man goes online to rail against “ALL women” because of what they attracted and what they were attracted to. LOL.

            Men tell us they want good,interesting and intelligent women, but they are drawn like bees to flower to gold diggers and individuals with as much personality as a footrest. I suppose a very attractive footrest is preferable to a real woman, logically speaking, just looking around at the situation.

            We exist who take care of our minds and bodies, but we just aren’t airbrushed, pixellated perfect. And we ARE being ignored. And it’s NOT because we are fat, or 45 years old, or whatever dumb fuckery MRAs and PUAs and MGTOWs are harping their balls off about. Dudes just aren’t wanting us anymore because the illusion of ‘perfection’ is so paramount to the male ego. So they get their perfect fix from the porn and etc, and some loaded guys buy the illusion of the real thing in the flesh. Do you see the sickening template? When I first saw this and got over my feelings about it, it was freeing. I truly take care of me for my own health and well-being now. I do not care about attracting men anymore because it may be futile. Better to just try and live a good life and be a person that I can respect when I look in the mirror. Amen.

          • Garry

            In respect to Murasaki’s comment “Men tell us they want . . .but they are drawn like bees to . . .”

            Do you think this dynamic begins and ends with men and dating? I think the behavior you noted is a human characteristic that spans both genders and many areas of life. Goes right to the core of decision making and the roles of what we commonly term ‘reason’ and ‘emotion’. Think in terms of the person who says they want to improve their finances, but then goes deeper into debt. We can find examples of the incongruity of words and action in across the spectrum of life.

            Malcolm Gladwell did a great job with this in ‘Blink’. Included some data from speed dating which among other things challenges the premise that it’s gender specific dating behavior. Jonathan Haidt does some intriguing work with the whole reason vs emotion thing in ‘The Happiness Hypothesis’. Uses an analogy of trying to ride an elephant when it comes to our attempts to master behavior.

            For those people who say ‘I want someone who is ABC’ but end up with someone who is DEF . . .do they not know what they want, have they somehow fooled themselves into wrongly believing they want ABC? Sometimes yes. But I think we also have a way of believing ‘it will all work out’. The person who breaks their diet and orders dessert really does want to lose the 10 lbs by X date, they just do the mental gymnastics that allow them to fit the cheesecake into the plan. They’re wrong, it doesn’t fit, but at the moment of decision the belief is there.

            It happens with people we find compelling in much the same way it works with any other impulse. It’s not a guy thing, it’s a human thing.

            I disagree with the idea that porn somehow depicts ‘perfection’ and it turns guys off to normal women. Most women in porn are not elite lookers. If anything, they look like ‘women in porn’ I think most guys get it that porn performers are entertainers plain and simple. Like anything there are some guys who don’t get it, but most do. Consider for a moment that when you witness the guy who makes a pronouncement ‘I’ve given up dating for jerking off to porn’. Isn’t it always preceded by ‘I’ve had a bunch of bad experiences dating’? Ever known a guy to say ‘I’ve had many wonderful experiences with great women, (meaning normal women who were good matches for him) but I’ve decided to put an end to all that and love me some porn?’ It’s not a choice that gets made.

        • Mickey

          Yeah, Murasaki, you found me out.

          I was on the verge of suicide because I don’t have someone as understanding as you obviously are in my life. Thanks for showing me it isn’t all hopeless. You’ve restored my faith in romance. Yay.

          Reply

          • This is almost surreal. Mickey, she’s simply a woman who is as negative as you are. They exist.

            Meanwhile, the optimistic and generous men and women out there are meeting, getting along and living happily ever after. It is what it is.

          • Murasaki

            Mickey,

            You aren’t the only one who was suicidal over this stupid shit. The way I got over it was to simply stop caring. There is no massive conspiracy out to deter you from finding a chick, reverse and likewise for me and other women hoping to find a decent dude. I’m sure it will happen for both of us in due time. In the meantime, go outside and watch the weeds blow in the breeze. It’s alright.

          • It will not “happen in due time” if (and because) you stopped caring any more than you’ll become a multi-millionaire for the same reason. Passivity doesn’t add up to success in any major endeavor in this life, including finding a high quality partner.

  130. I like this web site so much, saved to favorites. “To hold a pen is to be at war.” by Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire.

    Reply

  131. Perry

    I think the main reason why so many of us don’t look, or even ask them out much anymore is due to the internet.

    You read so many horror stories from men on women.

    It has turned off a good many men.

    Reply

    • Garru

      I think Perry is onto something IRT the role the net plays in this. There’s an Albert Einstein quote, and I’m paraphrasing here, that we advance out technology much more rapidly than we advance our understanding of how to deal with technology.

      We’re still far from getting a handle on how we’re impacted by the amount of information we’re bombarded with, not just via the net, but communication technologies of the past several decades. Its impact on dating and such is just one area — and not even the most important area — where the net can misshape our thinking if we aren’t mindful of how we process the overload.

      Reply

  132. carlo

    I think dating is not a great thing. Look at the herbivore men in Japan. These are the greatest men in the world. They don’t approach women because approaching women is disrespectful and they respect women. They don’t have much sex either which means they are disciplined.

    Reply

    • Mickey

      With regards to Carlo’s comment: in these parts women tend to DEMAND that men respect them, yet women don’t bother to respect any man.

      Another resigned sigh…

      Reply

      • That’s driven by leadership, Mickey. Change the attitude that they’re all disrespectful, be respectable in return and watch as they start respecting you. They’re human beings. Female ones, but human beings still. If you demonstrate to fellow human beings that you deserve respect, you’ll be respected. If in that case someone doesn’t respect you, it’s indeed their problem.

        But whenever there’s a clear, repeatable and/or even universal pattern of being disrespected, you’ve GOT to look in the mirror. I know that’s “tough love”, but it’s true.

        Reply

        • Garry

          There’s a Carl Sandburg story of a 19th century farmer somewhere out on the frontier. He’s out working his field and a fella rides up to him on a horse. Says ‘I’m new in these parts, what sort of people live here?’

          The farmer asks ‘what were folks like where you came from?’

          The guy responds ‘they were the laziest, crookedest, despicable people you’ll ever lay eyes on.” The farmer replies. “That’s pretty much what you’re gonna find here.”

          Few minutes later another newcomer rides up. Asks what people are like in that area. Again the farmer asks’what were folks like where you came from?’

          The guys answers ‘they were some of the hardest working, honest, friendliest people you could ever hope to meet.”

          “Well,” the farmer says “that pretty much the kind of people you’re gonna find here.”

          Reply

        • Murasaki

          You keep mentioning “leadership” in regards to the male approach to women. I’m curious, do you believe truly that any random man can compel a random woman to therefore, ‘follow’ him in any way, in such a random or variable setting as an impromptu meeting on the street? Help me to understand. I genuinely want to get information on the male perspective.

          FWIW, if some man came up to me being coercive and attempting to compel me to hear his words, his joke, his assessment of a situation or whatever, I’d be suspicious of his motivations. I don’t see how you can lead someone who does not wish to be led. Women are not horses or dogs. We are humans just like men are.

          Reply

          • This isn’t about forced coercion or anything negative like that, Murasaki. And nobody is saying that men should treat women like dogs (or vice-versa, for that matter).

            Valid examples would include:

            1) Dance Floor: Women universally detest a man who can’t lead

            2) First Dates: Most women can’t stand it when a guy puts her in the passenger seat and asks, “Where do you want to go?”

            3) First Meetings: Women will generally not volunteer their number or actively suggest that a first date happen. Hell, most women won’t even actively approach men first. The reason for all of that is that they feel it “hijacks” what the guy should be doing. It’s a much bigger turn-on to women when a man is bold rather than passive.

            4) Sex: It’s almost laughable to think that most women prefer to take the lead most of the time in the bedroom. Yes, FemDom stuff exists, but it’s not exactly mainstream.

            Again, none of this is about anything that is physically constraining, coercive, belligerent or anything else negative. The bottom line is that leadership that’s in a woman’s best interests almost universally turns women on sexually at the baseline, visceral, feminine level.

            But hey, you may be exceptional. That happens. No worries.

      • Garry

        There’s a huge difference between demanding respect and deserving respect. Personally I’d keep my distance from, and watch my back around, anyone, male or female, who demands what they haven’t earned.

        Reply

      • WinnieCooper

        As a woman I kind of agree. I am in my early 40s but have returned to college. The young ladies in these classes are being taught to see all men as pigs who do not deserve respect…under the guise of feminism. It is a shame but it is their loss. I have met many men who stir my heart with admiration for their strength. When I became a teenager my Dad taught me to just smile back if a man whistles or shows attention. I’ve listened to him and have never been raped yet after all These years… And people tell me I’m attractive. These young ladies just need a daddy to teach them that men have feelings too.

        Reply

        • No doubt, men and women who respect each other–even as members of different genders–have already achieved such a major building block of attraction. Thank you for your thoughts, WinnieCooper.

          Reply

        • Kevin

          This is malignant social engineering at work. Notice all the feminist leaders are man haters & wish to brainwash the female population. Unfortunately it has worked quite well , many young women DO view men as disgusting vermin & this in turn leads to men viewing women as hostile , cold hearted & to be avoided. I actually believe , sadly , that the inter gender animosity is increasing , mainly due to this concentrated brainwashing. Thank you for your kind pro male comments , decent , kind women are going the way of the dodo.

          Reply

          • Murasaki

            The thing is, universally, men treat us as worthless and to be ignored if we don’t look like a 20 year old bimbo. People get sick of being treated like that. Male attitudes towards women is what pits women against each other. The whole competition between women (the ones consciously or unconsciously playing that sick game) is generated by men, for the benefit of men. Women like me are excluded, because we don’t look like the perfect things men want. The desired types are hold up and placed upon a pedestal and generally when men say “women”, they are not talking about women like me, they mean the Hooter’s girl, porn looking, Playboy bunny types running around irl. Not quite unicorns, they are none the less the rare game men will hunt and ignore the rest of us in the field. This does affect the psyche until you seek deeper.

            I can’t speak on some woo-woo Shambala note of that because it still hurts and I haven’t worked it all out, but I have arrived at a point where I can see that I am good just the way I am. I am valuable. I am intelligent and fast to learn anything. If men prefer to drool over the chick that looks like a fitness instructor/underwear model…then there is nothing I can do about that. The site owner has labelled me “bitter” but I beg to differ. I am simply a realist. LOL, I can’t make men like me over the fancy chicks, but I can REFUSE to pity party over it. I can forge myself into the best version of me that I am capable of becoming, because I am capable! My body is strong and fit enough to do what I need it to do, and I like to struggle sometimes because those challenges help you get to the next level. Considering my set of circumstances, I think I have a healthy outlook on it all. Maybe one day I will meet a great dude. Till then, a bitch gotta live. I intend to live well and maybe I’m not bursting at the seams with happiness, but I am damn sure content with my lot. Things could always be worse. I’d rather have this abundant health and energy than men’s attention. One day, I will get to the place of perfect peace and acceptance. It’s a goal worth pursuing.

  133. Kevin

    @Murasaki , most men are NOT turned on by the plastic , Barbie type or the media whore types,these simply get more exposure in the controlled ” media ” , best thing I did was cease watching TV at least 7 years ago , as it’s BS !! Perhaps you give off a ” STAY THE F*** AWAY FROM ME ” type of vibe , many women do. Also as per Scot’s article , men are conditioned & strongly discouraged from even a mere glance at a woman. Neither gender ” checks out ” the other nowadays , women never have behaved in that manner anyway , so the genders are even here.

    Reply

    • I agree 100% that most men aren’t turned on by plastic Barbie dolls. All you have to do to see objective proof is research what men look at in private. Go to any major porn site and look at the most popular women. There are usually popularity rankings. Yes, you may see a few boob jobs here and there but the majority of them will be FAR more “natural” than you expect…and they’ll have more meat on their bones than you’d think, also. FWIW, you also won’t believe the percentage of Latinas.

      Reply

    • WinnieCooper

      I for one am sorry for the change. How does a woman feel alive without the beauty of a man’s smile and glance catching your eye? Don’t quit, men, If I am attracted to you I’ll smile back. And I am not a slut or would never think of going home with a stranger. That feeling you get when you see a beautiful man and he sees you is what makes the world go round.

      Reply

  134. Mickey

    In respect to Murasaki’s comment “Men tell us they want . . .but they are drawn like bees to . . .”

    And who does the cheerleader typically drool over? The quarterback of the football team, or the captain of the chess/math team?

    And which guy’s approach would be more welcomed? Brad Pitt…or…Jack Black?

    And there are those who swear that they want professional types like engineers or accountants, yet they run off with the Hell’s Angels biker.

    Yet another resigned sigh…

    Reply

    • Oh please, Mickey. All of that is pure fantasy on your part.

      Jack Black? As if that guy has even made an effort to be attractive to women with his professional persona. And yet, have you seen his wife? Next thing you’ll tell me is it’s because he’s famous. Yeah well, she’s famous also.

      And furthermore, plenty of engineers and accountants have adorable wives and girlfriends. Hell, some adorable women ARE engineers and accountants.

      Attitude. It’s all about attitude. Getchasum.

      Reply

    • Drummergirl

      LOL If I found a guy like Jack Black…well, he does it for me…so in my case that’s a bad analogy.
      I read this blog and realized there are a lot of folks who are bitter/exhausted/with the opposite sex.
      I been through fun relationship heaven/hell throughout my life, including the a long marriage and amicable-as-you-can-get divorce(because there is a good side and bad side to EVERYTHING). Life is a risk. I screwed up taking risks, and I also had the exhilarating moments possible from doing so too. Life is supposed to be fun, and so are romantic relationships. R,O,M,A,N,C,E… yep, it’s a real word! Leads to overload to dopamine in the head, marathon sex and LAUGHTER. Whoa, who’d of thunk? Once in a while I do meet a man who is HAPPY, FUN and up for making the best of it while we’re together. We like being ourselves and we like each other for not faking it.When it’s not fun anymore, well, we quit it.
      I don’t need props or games. And if I smell any phoney-baloney on you, I’ll be out of sight before you can blink.
      So, yeah…Jack Black. In more ways than one…LOL :D

      Reply

      • Garry

        Reading “When it’s not fun anymore, well, we quit it.” made me aware of something I’d not seen in this thread so far, an absence that should have stood out more than it had.

        It seems that everyone who has posted about giving up, or being at the brink of giving up, on relationships has cited either rough going trying to meet people, or problems with exploitative users they’d been involved with. It just now hit me that no one posting here has backed off on dating from the accumulated scar tissue of love lost. For centuries the people who dropped out of dating were the pained souls haunted by the ghosts of lost lovers. It was all about not wanting to risk the pain of a bad ending. Tennyson didn’t speak for everyone when he wrote that it was better to have loved and lost than never to have loved. To some, the going up wasn’t worth the coming down.

        Point is, the perspective to recognize that the thrill is gone, quit and move on to the next adventure without ample despair and depression has seemed to be ascending. Sure, hearts are still broken but folks get over it and don’t go into protective little shells vowing never to care for another person again. For all the replies in this thread, not one has addressed fear of loss and hurt. Folks seem to have navigated that one just fine. The protective shells seem to form over front end events. Instead of fearing intimacy because of some past bad time, the current trend here tends to be a denial that intimacy is obtainable because the ‘other side’ doesn’t want it.

        Reply

        • Fair comment, Garry, but do bear in mind the subject of the original post. That’s why people who would have a particularly emotional reaction to the topic at hand are the ones doing the most commenting.

          Rest assured that we’ve had more than our fair share of men and women of the years come to us for coaching because they just can’t seem to get over their ex, even though they know it’s time to move on. Others have been unable to move on from someone they admired from afar and never even had the chance to get close to.

          Reply

          • Garry

            You’re right, the original post had a lot to do with the sorts of replies.

            I still think there is something worth getting at here. The people who had a great relationship go south and have become extra careful or flat out stayed on the sidelines ever since are reacting to an actual experience they had. When they’ve worked it through and eased back into dating they were working through a reality, the painful back end of what had once been the best part of their life. I’ll concede your point that more people are struggling with the working through than seems the case in this thread, but I’ll again stress that it’s an actual life event, one that has been lived and that they have no choice but to respond to in some way.

            If someone sours on dating because every woman he approaches shoots him down rudely, those are actual life events as well. But it seems that a lot of guys are turning their backs on dating because of angry blog posts, vile filled forums, and the esoteric diatribes of fem nazi professors teaching classes that the vast majority of coeds have little interest in taking. Those are not actual life experiences, they’re small slices of the world that a person can chose to avail themselves to or avoid.

            There are road maps out of the darkness of ‘no one else could be as right for me as she was / I don’t want another six months of the kind hell I experienced after we ended’ and people find a map way more often than not. But if someone allows themselves to get sucked into the negative media, and starts buying into the urban legends of the guy who smiled and said hi to a female coworker and was then fired for harassment, it seems a harder thing to break free of. Hence people aren’t giving up on dating because of pain dating has caused them — they get through that by and large — but aren’t trying because of bitterness they read online from women they don’t even know. Women whose opinions they can choose to ignore.

          • Definitely. Just this past weekend we were out in-field with a guy meeting women. We met at least 100 of them, and all of them were friendly, sunny and all about fun. To demo exactly what I’ve been talking about on this thread, I then changed my demeanor a bit and got cold, stone-faced, awkward responses…predictably. It’s all about how we lead, especially when you see a consistent pattern.

  135. RHC

    The guy who said you can sum up the reason for men acting the way they do is feminism is correct. And most all the details of what feminism has done, described by the men who have responded, in my opinion, generally speaking, are correct. American women have such an incredible sense of entitlement. And men are ridiculed and demonized so much in the media. Especially white men. I get the feeling sometimes that because power has shifted, the reaction is that it is time to get even for every injustice ever inflicted. Real or imagined. I find it very difficult to approach a woman because to me, they make themselves unapproachable. So many times I have made eye contact and smiled at a woman who is waiting on me at some store or restaurant and get such a freezing cold reaction that it is almost shocking. When did eye contact and a smile become so repulsive? The college campuses, the corporations, the government … everywhere, men are being told to stand down and do not be masculine in any way. How can that not have an effect on men? Then women wonder why men are turning away? Come on! For those men who have the natural ability to attract a woman (alpha males?) then they can have a field day in this environment. For the rest, it is all more trouble than it is worth. Bottom line … it is a sad situation and you can’t blame men for feeling the way they do. And women only have themselves to blame for it.

    Reply

    • Garry

      So what you’re saying here, “For those men who have the natural ability to attract a woman . . . they can have a field day in this environment.” is that all the other stuff, ridicule, bitterness, etc goes out the window when a woman encounters a man who actually arouses her interest.

      So what exactly is the problem then

      Reply

      • Hold on, though. I don’t think it has to be “natural” ability. Learned skill and (especially) attitude change works wonders.

        Reply

        • Garry

          It’s ALL learned ability. Some people learn it young without realizing it. I had to hit a wall and want to get better, but it’s all learned. It’s all teachable.

          ‘The Natural’ was a fine movie, but even Mike Trout has a batting coach.

          Reply

      • RHC

        What I am saying is that if only a few men are actively pursuing because the rest have decided not to participate then those few will have even more success than they would have otherwise. The rest of your post I don’t even understand.

        Reply

  136. RHC

    “Meanwhile, the optimistic and generous men and women out there are meeting, getting along and living happily ever after. It is what it is.”

    And I have to say that the above quote by Mr. McKay is almost laughable. Now THAT is surreal! Living happily ever after? Why inject fairy tales into the discussion? Sorry, but it is not reality.

    Reply

    • Not whose reality? Yours?

      It’s my reality. It’s also the reality of LOTS of optimistic, generous people out there.

      Just because it sounds fictional to you doesn’t change the truth of the matter.

      This is no different than how certain guys can’t wrap their head around the reality that in over ten years of doing in-field coaching with guys I’ve *never* experienced a “rude rejection”. Because they are “rudely rejected” every time they attempt to talk to a woman, they automatically assume I’m not being truthful. But meanwhile, just this past weekend we had another guy in here, talked to well over 100 women and all of them were sunny and playful.

      It is reality. And I’m *not* sorry. Do you think for a second I’d make this my life purpose if relationships were categorically hopeless?

      Reply

  137. RHC

    You’re right, It’s not my reality. And I have had plenty of real life experience. Both participating and observing. This world is a mess and men and women are at odds with each other in every way conceivable. The divorce rate is 50%. Women initiate the divorce 69% of the time. Men get taken to the cleaners in divorce court. The well has been poisoned. Any man who is not aware of this is at risk. I am not saying relationships are hopeless. And there is no doubt that some guys have the ability to attract women. I have seen all of that also. But for normal everyday men, the male, female environment we live in is toxic, and the happily ever after stuff just does not fit into it.

    Reply

    • All I can say to that is your reality *used* to be my reality also. But I did something to change it.

      Frankly, I was more interested in “happily ever after” than remaining bitter and disillusioned.

      We all need to grasp that our reality is a matter we have plenty of control over. I, for one, was sick of being a victim.

      Reply

    • Garry

      The 50% divorce rate is a misunderstood figure that is largely irrelevant. This high number is an across the board figure that includes the experiences of high risk demographics such as people who married in their teens, people who are poorly educated, people who are lacking in many basic life skills, people who’re at the bottom of the economic ladder and facing huge challenges in life. I see no reason for a stable guy who has his life under control and free of the obstacles that some less fortunate people face to think their results are relevant. For instance, substance abuse is a factor in many divorces. If you’re not an addict and you don’t date addicts, your chances of being party to a divorce take a big drop.

      For many broad demographic groupings free of the high risk factors the divorce rate is more like 20%.

      Reply

      • Not to mention how many people settle because they don’t have options. Also, it really seems like narcissism is at an all-time high.

        Two generous, optimistic people who adore each other will generally do well. But I’m not sure you can measure those factors accurately ahead of time, right?

        Reply

      • RHC

        The stats are the stats. Spin it however you want. From what I see among people I know, the 50% divorce rate looks about right to me.

        Reply

        • Come on, Randy. Your “stats” are admittedly and blatantly based on your own casual observation of people you hang out with.

          Google “United States Divorce Rate” and you’ll see some eye openers if you dig into the statistics. For example, did you know that the more money a man makes, the LESS likely he is to get divorced? Did you know that the combo of marrying after 18 and being college educated DRAMATICALLY reduces the divorce rate?

          Ultimately, broad statistics don’t matter. If you deserve what you want and choose a spouse wisely, you’ll far more likely to beat the odds.

          And even if you don’t, the statistics don’t tend to back up the widespread belief that men “get taken to the cleaners” in divorces.

          Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe, usually looking for “statistics” that support their preconceived notions, be they optimistic OR pessimistic.

          Reply

          • RHC

            There is nothing I can say to you that will change your mind. There is nothing you can say to me that will change mine. The problem is out there, you are here discussing it. And it is not going away. It is going to get worse because the politics of it are getting more radical. I know what I have experienced and I know what I see everyday. This is not a good time for men in America. That is a fact. Some men will get lucky. You need some skill, but you need luck even more. And with that in mind, I will say good luck to all of you guys. I think I am done here …

  138. Mickey

    Scot:

    Again, you have way too many women who have the aura of “don’t approach me, don’t look at me, don’t touch me, and stay the hell away from me.” This is what decades of social engineering has brought us, and as you mentioned, that is the central issue of your original post.

    I would analogize it this way: if you’re walking down the street and every house on the block had signs like “do not enter,” “you are not welcome here,” “strangers not allowed,” and so on, guess what? You don’t go in. You don’t have to point a gun at me so that I get the message.

    If you have so many women that are so hostile to men, the only sensible thing is to keep your distance.

    Staying away from a situation in which one is openly unwelcome is hardly being a victim.

    It is what it is.

    Reply

    • Careful, Mickey. Read the OP again. I never said the issue was because a lot of women genuinely want men to stay away. The reason why men feel they can’t even look at women is partially because of sexual harassment training. Most women who attend such meetings understand that it was a couple of bad apples who made it necessary. Meanwhile, men typically leave scared stiffless, left to a life where erring on the side of conservatism is a perceived no-brainer.

      Now, if you’re personally encountering cold, rude responses from virtually every woman within your airspace, that’s a pattern. It’s not them, it’s you. I promise. Just this past weekend I was in-field with a guy and we talked to well over 100 women. ALL OF THEM were sunny and friendly. Every single one of them. Not one of them was rude, cold, etc.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        My only encounters are “hello” and “goodbye.” There ain’t much to look forward to after that.

        Reply

      • Murasaki

        Just to fill you in, some (certainly not all) women may have the typical RBF in public or closed off aura/unapproachable demeanor, because they know where they “rank” on the attractiveness scale to male human beings. I doubt Molly Modge Podge is going to strut about all confidently like Beyonce, alluring all the mens with her winning smile even if she happens to have perfect teeth as one of her few outstanding attributes. Molly Modge Podge may be 5’9 and 135 lbs, sleek and trim, but not photoshop thin. She may have a aging visage, a terrible crime for a woman even if she is approaching 40. Women are expected to look 23 forever. Some have the $$ to pull it off a few years longer then us normal women who never get Frankenbitch procedures, but we do notice what happens when a woman ticks certain boxes and how her male attention factor either increases or decreases because of it. Looking as close as possible to the Hollywood ideal of thin, thin (yes twice) and frozen, plastic severely made-up face and unnaturally perfect skin tone does it every time. By does it I mean pulls in da mens by the truckload to the lucky lady’s yard that ticks all the ‘good’ boxes.

        Hey, I’m all for taking care of myself and being in balance. I work out every day, I eat light but healthfully, I make 80% of all my facial products from scratch using natural, perishable ingredients that must be used within a few days to a week so my skin gets maximum nourishment externally. I only use natural care products for my hair and body. I wear clean clothes everyday. I don’t look like an ogre or have missing, rotten teeth. What I am saying is, I am no gila monster and or even a woman that could be construed as ‘old’ just yet, but men don’t dig me from what I can see. I won’t accept that I am throwing some fucked vibe either, and neither are thousands of other women like me. Oh, how convenient men. Face it, some of us just ain’t perfect enough for ya. It’s okay. Most of the ones like us have grown up enough to accept facts and don our big girl panties and still live a good and enriching life. Male attention is not the end all, be all of a woman’s existence, but it is nice to know you still exist.

        Reply

        • Quote: “I won’t accept that I am throwing some fucked vibe either, and neither are thousands of other women like me.”

          The irony here is that if you were sweet, fun, giggly, sunny and positive men would suddenly love you. Yet I’m guessing that suggestion makes you ill, if not downright angry at me for suggesting it, doesn’t it?

          That pretty much captures the problem in a mayonnaise jar for safe keeping, doesn’t it?

          Reply

          • Murasaki

            I am 30 something, sir. I am not a little girl. Sweet, fun and giggly? No, I am rather reserved, shy and by default, always thinking or surveying things in my environment. That does not make me unapproachable. It makes me an adult that is not skipping around smiling indiscriminately at everything in my viewing range. I do smile a lot. I do laugh a lot. I also ‘play’ a lot (climbing, lifting, exploring/hiking, garage science experiments, etc). Why do I have to reveal the inner part of me to the world and be a smiling fool to get men to notice me? If men are into people that just goof around with little to no care, then maybe they’re really into little girls. I for one, would be so shocked.

          • You’re shooting the messenger, Murasaki.

          • Kevin

            Scot ,

            Your advice about ” It’s all about your attitude ” certainly applies to both genders. Men are more intuitive than popular ” culture ” paints us as ( which is dumb , sex crazed , morons!! ) I’m very sharp with my intuition , this has been honed as a British Army solider in my past.

          • No doubt. It’s definitely not gender specific.

            Surprisingly little is, actually, when it comes to dating advice.

          • Garry

            Forget giggly for a moment. If your sense of humor is wry, dry, and sardonic, there are plenty of guys have similar outlooks. For those guys a knowing nod or a bemused grin, the kind that says ‘you and I are the only two people in this room who get the absurdity’ can go far.

            “Why do I have to reveal the inner part of me to the world?” You don’t, no one does. But we all have to communicate SOMETHING about who we are and what we have to offer. When we’re feeling attraction to someone and want to bring that person into our life isn’t it because of what they’re presenting of who they are? Something that tells us the person’s company would be enjoyable?Something that turns us on? Doesn’t it benefit us to do the same thing? We’ve gotta convey what we have to offer. Something that says ‘Like how you’re feeling around me? Want more of it?’ The whole mindset of ‘I’m really cool once you get to know me’ is failure looking for a place to happen. Gotta convey from the getgo that we have something to offer, even if that something is an enigmatic thing that is only exposed in fleeting glimpses at the start.

            Forget the guys who want something you’re not. Good chance they don’t have what you want either. NEVER give people who aren’t into you power over you, power in this sense being a belief your world would rock if they’d join in’ Truth is the person who wants someone different from you probably has different objectives of what he wants to contribute to, and get from, a relationship than you have. Thinking of the ‘I wish so and so was into me’ sort can sometimes be based on a overly hopeful misconception of what daily life with the person would entail. That said, I think it’s a huge mistake for anyone, male or female, to decide that the reason they’re not getting any action has to do with all MOTOS wanting something they’re not. That belief is a handy crutch that helps people avoid an honest assessment of who they are, what they have to offer, and whether they’re conveying it in a way that helps or hinders their chances.

            To use a beer analogy (hey, it’s a holiday weekend), someone brewing craft beer knows from the start that they won’t have as many takers as Bud, Miller, or Coors. Those being the busty 20 yr old blondes of the beer world. Even if someone wouldn’t want to drink Coors all the time, there remains something to be said for an ice cold Silver Bullet to wile away an evening with. So if someone is craft beer, they know that overriding truth and they don’t freaking care. Their life isn’t about making water with a head. BUT if someone’s craft beer isn’t selling at all it would be a mistake to conclude ‘no one likes craft beer, EVERYONE ALWAYS wants mainstream beer’ and closing down the brewery. More productive approach might be to scrutinize their craft beer, ask if they really need to be 9.0 ACV, ponder why they’re hesitant to explore more exotic hops, reevaluate the efforts to let people know what’s in the bottle and enticing them to try it. Not with the goal of becoming closer to Coors, but of best reaching the people who would enjoy joining them on an exploration of the possibilities of beer.

            Any man or woman who knows who they are and posses a sense of purpose for their life generates a certain amount of intrigue among MOTOS who’re going in complimentary directions. I believe that fully because it has been my experience. It’s crazy, when I see the MGTOW guys here going all Iron John and focusing on their goals, following their passions, becoming the LEADER of their own life, and not following the herd I keep thinking those dudes could probably captivate the living hell out of comparable women if only they tweaked their attitude toward women. Same goes for women who are doing similar things.

          • Attitude. It’s all about attitude.

            You either welcome MOTOS with sexual polarity as they define it, or not.

  139. Murasaki

    Okay Mr. McKay. Let’s say you are correct. That I just need to ‘smile’ more, right? Yes, I do have awesome teeth as a result of my ocd obsession with dental care, but will my smile be enough if I’m in the midst of women who look like they can compete in a bikini contest? Which is it, sir? Men are visual, or are they swayed by nuance? You ask me not to ‘shoot the messenger’, but why do you have to dismiss my experience? I have not been mean or dismissive of anyone here. Why do that to me?

    Reply

    • See, here’s the thing…

      The simple fact that you feel I’ve “done something to you” and “dismissive” says everything. I disagree with you–even only in part–and now you’re a victim? THAT’S the reason why men aren’t interested, Murasaki. It’s not because you aren’t a Barbie Doll.

      You and the #MGTOW are exactly the same, just different genders. If all of you would get over yourselves, stop blaming (which I’m now saying for what seems like the 100th time in this thread) and do what it takes to be attractive to MOTOS, you’d attract them. And if you have such a low view of men that you think all of us want “bimbos”, then that’s “dismissive” in and of itself. I told you straight up what attracts men, and you “dismissed” it.

      You know, vinegar vs. honey.

      Reply

      • Murasaki

        That’s an incredible assessment made from such precious little information, sir. But, it’s all good.

        I’m not waging war upon all men just because I am not the conventional beauty that can fall out a tree dusty and grimy and get men, the way they are doing to women.

        I guess I *do* have my ideas based off my experience. As all people do. You’re not a woman. You have no idea what it’s like for us. Yes, I feel that your posts above are dismissive because you can’t even try and understand what I am saying, like it’s so far fetched, that it’s impossible to believe. And it makes me a ‘victim’ on top of that? Yet a dude named Penguin comes in here dissing women clearly and giving douchey advice and that’s cool though. All I am doing is joining the conversation with my perspective as a woman.

        Anyway, unlike the MRAs and MGTOWs, I realize there are decent men out ‘there’. I get it. I don’t think I’m against all odds, and I don’t think my hand sucks, but I do know that I am up against the media and cultural BS. Maybe so are men to a certain degree. But I am not a man, so I don’t know. It does look like men can get away with a lot more than we can. Men can get ‘husky’ (read: mildly potbellied and lacking a lot of muscle definition), and be seen as strong and still attractive to most women. Women get husky, and we are mocked as fat or worse. Men live and get facial wear and tear and no longer look like cherubic boys, and it’s cool. They are just men with character in their faces. Wrinkles make a man look ‘distinguished’, but make a woman ‘old’. We all living on the same planet with the same factors that cause aging, but women aren’t allowed to age. LOL, you gotta laugh at this shit sometimes, it’s ridiculous.

        I think the MRAs/MGTOW guys are way more riled up about this mess that I am. They have entire ideologies and shit. I just call it like I see it. I can’t speak for every chick, because obviously, women that look better or ‘worse’ than myself may have a different story to tell. As a matter of fact, a nice man did flirt with me yesterday and even asked me for a hug…twice and I had only met him and had a little conversation. So, I’m not some growling dragon lady here. I can bet that nice dude was not a MGTOW/MRA though. LOL

        Reply

        • Again…it’s all about attitude. Always.

          Reply

        • Kevin

          Steps in the right direction with the attitude !! Scot IS right !! I’m certainly not MGTOW or whatever , I’m a single dad , recently separated ( my decision ) just don’t have the inclination to date , so I’m no bitter guy , simply too much to do & crave my alone time.

          Reply

  140. Na

    I dont even get looks from the opposite sex any more. I am 26 and I swear its like I am invisible. I get told I am beautiful, gorgeous, I am slim but have curves. I went to a plastic surgeon and he told me I needed help because I was beautiful. I get told I look like a snob and am stand offish and rude, could that be it?

    Reply

    • That’s what it turns out to be for quite a number of people we work with.

      I wouldn’t let any plastic surgeon “help” you.

      Reply

    • Garry

      I’d urge anyone contemplating plastic surgery to first read Dr. Maxwell Maltz’s book.

      Reply

  141. Vladdie93

    I just don’t find women attractive anymore.
    I spent 9 years jerking off to pornography. Now that I’ve stopped, I just don’t care to look at women anymore.

    It was far easier with porn. There were no judgements, no hesitation, and no expenses (I got most of mine free). You weren’t being rude by looking. It also didn’t try to tell you what you wanted with things like “real men like curvy women, only dogs go for bones”.

    I felt “rape-y” when I used to look, but recently I don’t have a reason to. I was an ugly kid, so I knew it was something I’d never get. After years of worrying about it, now it’s become something I don’t want. I feel bad for saying things like this, but I don’t understand what people “appreciate” when noticing women.

    Reply

  142. Mickey

    “Passivity doesn’t add up to success in any major endeavor in this life, including finding a high quality partner.”

    And looking in perpetuity for something that just isn’t there is not a winning formula either.

    P.S. Murasaki: I hope you realize I was being facetious when I mentioned being suicidal.

    Reply

  143. Cackus Rex

    I was talking to a women in her 70′s I volunteer with. She asked me if I had a girlfriend. I told her I gave up on women 15 years ago and won’t have anything to do with them. She responded that I do fine with her and the other women in the charity. I responded that they are all in their 70′s and are from a generation that still had respect for men and that I was unlikely to face the kin of rampant misandry and witch hunt culture that is the current climate.

    Yes, I’ll still hold the door for a women (it’s polite) but I won’t get on an elevator alone with one.

    Last week I went on a job interview for an engineering position at a university. I was in the parking garage waiting for an elevator and a lone women approached to get on the elevator. I said I would wait for the next one. She looked at me with a kind of sadness knowing why. After few minutes a second elevator came but another women had approached. again I declined to board with the one women. Again I got that sad knowing look.

    I already work at the university and the “women feeling unsafe on th elevator or in the parking garage” examples were both used in the PP presentation as examples for the Sexual harassment prevention training that simply classified all men as predators and all women as victims .

    I got to my interview and guess who was there? Yes both women were from HR. They knew exactly why I wouldn’t get on the elevator with them.

    No, I don’t look at women. I actively avoid them for MY SAFETY.

    Reply

  144. Cackus Rex

    It’s funny as I’m a “pretty boy” a 6’2″ athletic male model type you might see me on a pack of Haynes and have had my fair share of sexual harassment by women (and gay men) because of it.

    My family esp my mom are always like “When are you going to find a nice girl?” and “why don’t you date?”

    My mom even asked me if I was Gay! (I’m not!)

    Simply put, they fail the cost benefit analysis and the risk reward equation.

    Yeah I would like to have sex and being celibate almost my entire adult life is hard. But I see my friends and what the women in their lives have done to them and want no part of it.

    Reply

  145. Notworthit

    Just came from a mandatory university seminar on sexual harassment. Scary shit. Basicly you can be ruined by a women on an unfounded accusation with absolutely no recourse or fair hearing Even if you are found innocent(unlikely) and the accuser publicly admits she made the whole thing up you are doomed.

    I would kill myself if falsely accused. Every women on campus has a loaded gun with a hair trigger pointed at my head.

    I’ve never asked a women out and after that I never will. I was at the Subway (food subway not transportation) ordering when the girl behind the counter started flirting with me. She was very attractive but that seminar was fresh in my mind.
    I almost left without my food.

    I wanted to run.

    ALL MEN ARE RAPIST.

    I got the message, I’m unwelcome at the University because of my gender.

    Guess thats why male enrollment is down to %37.

    I’m a biochemistry and nutritionist major and am thinking of marketing a herbal product to the men on campus consisting of:

    Chaste tree berry, licorice root and saw palmetto.

    Been using them myself for the past few weeks , I’m so much more relaxed without a sex drive women are just objects like lamp posts.

    Several of my friends have taken them and many more have expressed interest.

    I’m a loving and kind person. I like to volunteer helping the elderly and was raised to be a gentlemen. I’ve never seen any of my large family display any kind of abusive relationships. I would love to have someone special in my life but have given up hope due to the hostile anti-male environment I live in.

    Reply

    • But it’s not the girl at Subway’s fault that your University is trying to brainwash you.

      You’re not the wrong gender. You’re at the wrong university.

      Reply

    • Mickey

      Friend, you might want to transfer to another university and get out quick! That place sounds like a trumped up charge just waiting to happen.

      Reply

    • Vladdie93

      I’d give that herbal supplement a try.

      Reply

    • Mickey

      Notworthit: What college did this happen at? It might be a good idea to steer male students away for their own protection.

      Reply

  146. Mickey

    Remember the old adage “Women: Can’t live with ‘em, can’t live without ‘em?” Today’s version of that adage would probably go something like this: “Women: can’t live with ‘em…THE END.”

    Reply

  147. Dokushindansei

    Scot,
    I’ve noticed in a lot of your responses you talk about “leading women” and “having the right attitude.” Could you please elaborate more on what those mean? I genuinely have no idea what leading a woman would even look like, or how they respond to it (also, I haven’t dated in 7 years and the last date thought I was gay, so 0 experience).

    Reply

    • Doing justice to your main question would require too much elaboration for a blog post comment.

      Suffice it to say it all starts with having a woman’s best interests at heart at all times and making decisions accordingly.

      There are a number of reasons why a woman would suspect you are gay, but that typically relates to how you carry yourself more than anything.

      I would suggest The Leading Man, The Master Plan or even 1-on-1 coaching.

      Reply

      • Dokushindansei

        I appreciate the response, and not to seem rude, but I’d rather not spend $100 to find out the answer.

        Personally, I’m feeling burnt out worrying about relationships. I’ve been losing interest in dating and women recently, wondered if it was normal, came across this article and saw that it’s becoming more common. I hardly look at women, and don’t see a reason to get involved with them in anything past coworker.

        Sorry about the personal stuff. The article clicked with me.

        Reply

  148. Mr. E

    Hey Scot,

    Wow, hot article, still pulling in comments for a couple years now. Congrats!

    Thought I’d pop in and and give a couple responses.

    On the topic of seeming predatory. I definitely see this at Work. We’ve had company parties and what not trying to get more cohesion between the departments (I’m in software development).

    IT and software will rarely interact with Sales (Mostly women). Why? Well, for one, the mandatory videos on sexual harassment from HR for starters. Didn’t know that “staring” or “leering” is now sexual harassment, but it is.

    I deal a lot with numbers and learned in college that I can reduce my chances of being expelled or fired to %0 by not interacting with women at either place. I was even asked a year later to mentor a woman by and old prof of mine. I declined, but made an excuse that I was too busy. Just the accusation of harassment, assault, or even rape in this country can get you fired, isolated from friends/family, or worse. Not for me.

    On your second point though, I’d pose the question, “Has the availability/forms of porn lessened men’s interest in women OR have modern women created the need for it?”

    I would say that there was such desperate need for an alternative to modern woman that society found a way to fill it.
    Don’t get me wrong, I prefer riding real roller coasters as opposed to a game like “Rollercoaster Tycoon”, but if the ride is dangerous, too expensive, too long a line, or crappy employees, I’m going to stay home and play the game.

    I don’t find myself insulated from people in general, I love biking/hiking with friends (I lead a very athletic lifestyle), however, here’s the sucker punch:

    I had heard about MRA’s and MGTOW mostly online, I figured it was a small online community that connected men around the world. Turns out most of the guys in IT/Software dev’s (at least at my company) are MGTOW. These are guys that make great money and are in excellent shape, but have completely written off marriage/relationships.

    I don’t know if I’m in the same boat, I’d like to think I’d be married with a couple rug rats someday, but after doing cost/benefit analysis, doesn’t look like its in the cards for me.

    If I went to Vegas and rolled the dice for love and lost, the consequences of alimony, losing my investments, retirement, house or if I had children, not seeing them, being used as pawns.

    Anyways, great article and cheers from the gloomy North West!

    Reply

  149. No

    What makes you think it’s the MAN’s fault?

    Time and time again, women who asking ‘where have all the good men gone’ are committing a scientific atrocity: They are not examining all the variables.

    If you start your question asking “what’s wrong with the men?” — you’ve ignored 50% of the information you need to examine. The other half, being, what’s difference about -

    THE WOMEN.

    Maybe the men aren’t doing anything wrong? Well … let’s start with a cost benefit analysis of what men are doing right/wrong around women, in terms of what’s good for them.

    1) Marriage – a futile attempt to keep a woman to stay with you in exchange for half your life’s saving and half your capacity to retire or ever be a provider again. It can be terminated on a whim’s notice. The one working always loses all. The one not working gains everything. Of all marriages, > 50% end in divorce, and 75% of those are initiated by the woman.

    2) Dating – a futile attempt to keep a woman to stay with you in exchange for purchases and other egregious items. Women are not held to any sort of standards on date, and in the end it just ends up being some horribly coordinated social construct on what men are supposed to do with their money.

    3) Relationship – a futile attempt to keep a woman to stay with you in exchange for a title. Relationships mean nothing in this day and age because women will come and go as they please from them.

    What does the man get for this? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It’s not worth it. Most women suck at being companions, and in a world built on equality it’s no wonder that we learn that women aren’t interested in it.

    Reply

  150. Mickey

    To Mr. E and No:

    Here’s what the dating dance has deteriorated into now:

    1) Approach.

    2) Get smacked down/rejected repeatedly.

    3)Rinse.

    4)Repeat.

    5)Throw in the sponge.

    Reply

  151. Garry

    I think the whole mindset of ‘not gonna ask her out b/c she might falsely accuse me of rape’ is somewhere between excessive caution and a rationalization for approach anxiety.

    When it comes to women, the internal stuff they carry around, and the impact their baggage has on men who enter relationships with them, I think a man is more apt to encounter a woman still suffering the trauma of a date or acquaintance rape that she didn’t report, maybe hasn’t sought counseling to assist her in dealing with, and oft times hasn’t even acknowledged as a violation, let alone as a rape, than a man is of encountering a woman damaged in such as way that she gets some sort of reward from falsely accusing a man of rape.

    The sad reality is that a man who wants to push the envelope with a woman in an altered state of mind or even a sober woman with a weak sense of personal boundaries has the odds in his favor when it comes to ‘will she or won’t she turn it into a criminal matter?’ I’ve had women tell me of incidents in their past where they were flat out raped, but they spoke of it as “I didn’t want to have intercourse with him, but I had flirted with him/made out with him and I guess it was my fault it didn’t stop where I wanted it to’ and even ‘I didn’t want to have sex with him but he kept pushing and pushing and wouldn’t take no for an answer and I felt it was easier to just give in than have him freak out and make it worse than it already was’.

    But — while I’m sure exceptions exist — I have never encountered a woman who said ‘he was a great guy, turned me on in more ways than I can count, would have liked keeping him in my life, but it was more fun crying rape and getting him in a world of trouble’

    The fallacy that a woman would prefer passing up a relationship with a high quality man in order to go through the ordeal of testifying in court about something that hadn’t happened just doesn’t hunt.

    Again, there’s no predicting the behavior of a mentally unstable person, but instability tends to show itself during the process of getting to know a person, aka dating. Rather than avoid the feeling out process and eschewing dating, I think a man is better served by dating MORE, building a frame of reference, holding to a chose and not chase mindset as Scot advocates, and knowing what he’s dealing with.

    Beyond that — and I’m no teetotaler, few things in this world I enjoy more than some good bourbon — keeping alcohol (or whatever your mind altering substance of choice is) out of the evening, be it the 3rd date or whenever, when you’re thinking the relationship is about to go physical, can help insure that she wants YOU with 100% of her being rather than merely acquiescing through the last haze of consciousness.

    I’m a middle aged man so my frame of reference is different than that of some younger guys, but trust me when I say that however tempting stacking the deck might be, the pot is sweeter when you play it straight. The girl who captivated you in a dozen ways in the first week of knowing her will be a lot more fun to romp in the sack with when the sexual aspects of all those dazzling quantities are engaged than when she’s drifting in and out of awareness like a dying fish.

    Not to do a sales pitch for Scot, but drop a few bucks on The Leading Man, The Master Plan, and anything else that suits your situation. Fix the small but pivotal things that are holding you back. Be The Man that a woman has been hoping to find and there’s a far better chance she’ll purger herself on your behalf than that she’ll lie against you.

    Reply

    • Well stated.

      Maybe a YouTube video on this would be in order. I believe very strongly that if a man knows how to create attraction in a woman, she makes her sexual interest quite clear sooner than later. The truly elegant part is that since you’re not pushing for sex with some sort of creepy “escalation” tactics, you don’t ever have to worry about accusations of rape.

      That said, the tragedy of how many women completely miss a woman’s “take me” signs is another matter altogether, unfortunately.

      Reply

  152. Russell

    Women are Not worth noticing anymore since they have many issues.

    Reply

  153. darline cavaliere

    Timely blog post ! I was fascinated by the analysis.

    Reply

  154. corburt erilio

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    Reply

  155. Anonymous

    Did you forget that they don’t need us any longer?

    Reply

    • Mickey

      Anonymous: Nobody’s forgotten that. How could anyone forget? The man-hating feminazis scream loud and clear, every chance they get, that guys aren’t worth a damn. They leave no doubt that women neither need nor want men.

      Reply

      • Correction…THOSE women neither need nor want men. The vast majority of other women don’t agree with them…at all.

        Reply

        • Mickey

          Well, I don’t see too many women sticking up for men.

          Reply

          • They’re all over the place. Emily and I were just on a podcast last night with a female host who was very pro-guy.

            If you search for man-haters, you’ll find them. If you’re looking for women who love men, you’ll find them also. The problem here is that you seem to be more about proving your #MGTOW point than finding good women.

  156. Jack Roberts

    You have a podcast like a youtube kind of channel ?

    Reply

  157. praise kek

    haha these kinds of articles always crack me up.

    who cares about relationships, they are for chumps. video games and porn is all a guy even needs.

    wew lads, don’t you know love is dead?

    Reply

  158. Mickey

    Yes, praise kek, romance is truly dead…and we need not look far to see who killed it.

    Here’s an example of how guys can’t do anything right in the eyes of many women:

    If a guy cheats on his wife/girlfriend, he’s an a-hole for doing in. Fair enough, perhaps. Yet, if the wife/girlfriend cheats, the guy’s an a-hole for driving her to do it.

    No matter what, a guy is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. He’s automatically in the wrong for just being a guy. Yet, we are supposed to “lead” these antagonistic, hateful women to reconciliation and happily ever after? That’s a rough hill to climb.

    Reply

    • I have no idea what universe it is where someone’s actions are anyone else’s fault. But suffice it to say that if you spend your life focused on low-end people (of either gender), guess who you’re going to find?

      Reply

  159. Wizard

    WOW, I never thought I’d still be on a blog about this subject.

    Yes I have many women friends who want a guy. Unfortunately for me, that ‘guy’ has never been me. So I adapted the only way I could and learned to live without a ‘special’ woman in my life as have so many men in this chain. It’s not a right or wrong issue.
    So when I sit up at 2am like I just did tonight with a woman friend who cried over an asshole and lamented that there are no more nice guys around, I can agree with her. In the past, having offered myself as a possibility and was met with shock and disappointment and even tears.
    I love my women friends but I’ll handle my sexual needs via porn. That way I can remain understanding with women.
    So all I can say is that some women do love men, maybe the top 10% of men or so. The next 20 to 30% of men they’ll settle for. For the other 60% of us, they whine about how there are no nice guys left. So I surrendered a long time ago, I’ve agreed with women, after those 40% are taken, there are no nice guys left. I’ll always remain a good listener for them.

    Reply

    • Don’t despair. I turn around the “nice guy” problem for men all the time, starting with myself 13 years ago. Simple changes can make all the difference.

      Reply

    • Kevin

      Wizard ,

      Don’t do this to yourself , this is self imposed mental torture , you must NOT be available to these women any more , cut them off , erase their details & just go ghost on them. You are better off totally alone , than having these so-called friends , that view you with nothing but contempt , I’m afraid that’s the hard truth , they do NOT value you as a person , you are a convenient ” always available ” emotional tampon & nothing more.

      Drop them & move on , women already have their ultra close female friends ( women prefer their own gender for company as a rule ) , you are surplus to their requirements , you MUST develop a harder heart in this world , especially as a man !!

      Reply

    • Mickey

      Wizard, you are a much better man than me for listening to your woman friend complaining about her jerk boyfriend. I never would have been able to do it as I would have thrown her ass out the door. Let her go commiserate with her thug chasing girlfriends.

      Reply

    • Garry

      Wiz, been there, done that, didn’t get her out of her t-shirt. And it’s exactly as Scot said, simple changes can make a big difference. The good news is you’ve already gotten the hard part, likeability, covered. Desirability just requires some tweaks. For real, any good man can learn how to ignite attraction. A lot of it is just unlearning the crap we’ve conditioned ourselves to believe. It’s much harder for an unlikeable person to fix the stuff that repels others.

      To repeat, I’ve been where you are. The whole ‘If I’m a good enough friend, then she’ll like me enough to want to be more than friends’. It don’t work. Ask anyone who ended up in a relationship that began as a friendship and I doubt you’ll hear that the reason for the transition was because of ‘what a great friend the other person was’. Weirdly enough, the whole thing of trying to be a good enough friend can diminish the chances of something blossoming beyond friendship if the emphasis is on trying to avoid challenging her. It’s akin to a football team that has a narrow lead at halftime and spends the second half playing not to lose rather than playing to win.

      The hell of it was I wasn’t even as good a friend to women I wanted to date as I was to guys or to women I didn’t want to date. When I was trying to grow a friendship into a relationship I tended to tell her what I believed she wanted to hear when she’d talk of her dating life. Whereas with guys I’d tell them what I believed they needed to hear. Think about that for a moment and ask yourself if you do the same. If a guy talks about his problems with women, do you call him on his BS and point out his role in the mess? Do you do the same with women or do you stay away from unpleasant truths? Being understanding isn’t always as beneficial as trying to help the other person understand their own stuff. We’re more ready to do that with a male friend because we trust the friendship and our own worth. We seldom fear that we’ll lose male friends because we’re not a good enough guy. But we’re less apt to take that risk with a woman because we fear losing what we have and we think being compliant is more attractive than being true to ourselves.

      The more we mute who we are as men in the interest of being liked, the less we offer the woman. All because we fear that who we are isn’t enough. Scot wrote something earlier about how often men miss women’s signals and it’s painfully true. Back in my early 20s I was in another city for a couple weeks and spending a fair amount of time with a female friend who lived there. Extremely hot girl I was enjoying being around in whatever form I could get. During dinner one evening she talked about her growing ambivalence to her boyfriend. Adding ‘he’s so jealous of my spending time with you. He wants to be exclusive and he’s just not all that for me’ the end of the evening we went back to my hotel. Entering the room she went straight for the bed and stretched out on it. I freaking thought ‘she’s probably just more comfortable laying than sitting’ and I sat down in a chair. We were never going to date, too many miles between us for the prospect to interest either of us, but I’d unknowningly ignited enough of a spark that she wanted to set fire to the sheets while I was there. I totally missed it because I saw a low ceiling on our dynamic such that I was the friend who listened to the ups and downs of her life. Not the man who added high points to it.

      You sound like you’ve tried to be more assertive in seizing some opportunities than I was, and then it turned out the opportunity really wasn’t there. Still, credit is due for being willing to take a risk. That said, the thing of being up until 2am being a sounding board. Would you have done the same with a male friend who’d just been dumped? If she knows that’s your way of life with any friend, male or female, cool. She’s lucky to be counted among your friends. If she’s an exception and she knows it, you’re already giving her many of the benefits of having you as a boyfriend.

      Is the decision to pursue a relationship a goal oriented behavior? Do we date someone because we want to enhance our life by having the person in it? What more can she expect to receive having you as her bf that she doesn’t already have?

      Reply

  160. Mickey

    Gents:

    I came across an article recently that spoke about how guys have given up on the idea of meeting women, and the last line in the article perfectly described the resulting despair:

    “But it’s too bad, because a lot of them could have a happy life that includes the comforts of women, but they never got a chance when they most needed it.”

    That says it all. I couldn’t agree more.

    Here’s the link: http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/guys-opting-out-of-the-game/

    Reply

    • Mickey if you’ve given up on women, so be it. But please go outside and get some fresh air. Do ANYTHING other than obsess over it, because you’re only burning yourself from the inside.

      I don’t understand why you #MGTOW guys have to be so militant toward other men who are perfectly happy with the women in their lives. You’re not going to change our minds. After all, we’re happy.

      Getting “friend zoned”, creeping women out, failing to deply and other similar issues are all solved by experience and learned skill. The solution isn’t to tell guys so affected to simply give up on women.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        So Scot, come hell or high water, sleeping with the enemy is the only solution. That’s one wager I’ll never take. I’m going outside now. :-)

        Reply

        • Well, that’s the logical fallacy of begging the question. You’re assuming your position of women being “the enemy” is true, when it’s open for debate.

          Reply

  161. Garry

    To all the dudes thinking they can’t have a great woman in their life . . . if the Cubs can win the World Series, anything is possible.

    Reply

  162. leonard

    Big Scott – You REALLY have a level head about this ( small wonder, you ARE an instructor ), but there must be a real problem if so many good men just wait for women to ask THEM out, so that they can at least know that the women are actually interested in them.

    Reply

    • Jack

      Do you think that problem is that Men are waiting? I think it is more of a mental state or the belief of thing that your problem whatever it maybe is what stops you, mental and physical energy to wanna puruse etc…
      It is know that older people usually are single but it is even worse for young people in a similar way.

      Reply

    • Mickey

      Leonard: The problem isn’t that men are waiting for women to ask them out; the problem is that women are severely disinclined to show ANY sign of interest/encouragement/friendliness, and the like. What is so wrong with a little friendliness? It’s at the point now where a guy has to go on a scavenger hunt to find the even tiniest sliver of interest from the fair sex, yet a woman’s disinterest is as subtle as getting slugged in the mouth with a crowbar. Thus, whether the reward is worth the risk is debatable at best. I for one no longer see any reward, and haven’t seen any for a good 20 years at the minimum.

      I forget where I saw this, but recently someone made a point that women DO want guys to approach and WANT to have relationships. I can only say that with the legally sanctioned misandry already out there, I think the idea that women are encouraging is laughable to the point of tragedy.

      Reply

      • You heard that here, Mickey. Remember me? I’m the guy who is happily married and hasn’t had a mentally competent woman be mean to me since Junior High.

        FWIW, you picked the wrong week to reach for “legally sanctioned misandry”. Exactly 58% of female voters in this country firmly believe they just witnessed legally sanctioned misogyny.

        Just goes to show which selfish, bitter perspective one looks at life from, doesn’t it?

        Reply

        • Mickey

          Scot: Wrong week or not, the idea that we as men are supposed to lead the phalanx of man-hating harpies (who’s hate is as loud and open as ever) to the promised land of “happily ever after”…or even a decent relationship…is quite the bridge too far.

          Reply

  163. Akshay

    I think this is all a lack of persistence. In terms of a sports metaphor, its like giving up basketball because you couldn’t get a single shot in the first day of playing basketball. Some guys twist their ankles in addition to that.
    Well Scott, everybody does not have the persistence of Jordan. There can be many more factors to that than you covered here, all equally valid for the lack of notice of women by men. But ultimately all that matters is that we overcome those obstacles and limiting beliefs. No pain, no gain
    To the ladies, the commandments of the feminist manifesto is your limiting belief(s). If you can see the situation and want to change that, small steps from your side won’t hurt the situation either. Next time you walk past a guy, try giving him a smile and saying hello instead of just playing with your hair (A little secret: men are the dumbest creatures on earth when interpreting the playing with your hair and the innocent touch). Please understand this handicap of ours and try to work with that a little. A little encouragement from your side will really turn the tide on the situation.
    I understand your reservations for your safety, but a simple hi won’t really hurt. As a man, I vouch for my kind that 99% of us won’t take it the wrong way.

    Reply

  164. Women are the new men which is a shame since most men are not gayosexual.

    Reply

  165. Wez

    Hey Scot, it’s been awhile since I’ve posted but I’ve kept up with the conversation..

    First I should say that I am a “purple pilled” MGTOW–this means that I have in the past and am currently dating women, I have a vibrant sex life, and also indeed believe that “leadership” is what women crave.. However, I have no ambition to marry (I am a fit guy with a great career as a Ph.D.) … The risks of marriage, to me, are far to high–especially as I seem to be getting the “milk for free” so to speak.. There exist far too little protections, in law, for men against women (the great majority of whom have very little angst against men, however still have the power and ability to financially break a man with the fun family court system, alimony, etc)

    I also agree that many on here that take you on intellectually may be a bit extreme in their commentary–but their fears are real.

    Just a bit of criticism, Scot, these men are telling you what it’s like out there.. And time after time, you refer back to your own experiences to dismiss them.. Honestly, as a scientist, this is a very ineffective technique to understand the problem that your original posts seeks to solve.

    I would ask that you see where they are coming from.. These experiences are real and has happened to me just but a few years ago–an exgf came to me 7mo’s after we broke up telling me that she was pregnant with my child and threatened to “take me for everything I had” —the fear, Scot, the fear!!! I lawyered up and fortunately the child was born not of my skin color (she and I are white, the baby’s complexion is much darker) and she dropped all communication with me..

    I can guess that your typical response to this story is to somehow blame me and recommend that I properly vet these women before I sleep with them… Scot.. I do.. Of course I do.. I HAVE to… Doesn’t mean that ANY woman couldn’t be the type to try to destroy you for your money and status..

    Your happy in your life, and good for you— but telling these men that are trying to tell you how bad it is out there that it’s their “lack of leadership” is misleading and, can be, at times, condescending..

    Perhaps you should look into some of the MGTOW lit and vids on YouTube.. Try to better understand the issues these men are trying to tell you about.. You claim that they have immense negativity towards women but biologically I’m sure that they crave them, but their brains also fear the power that the laws of this country (strengthened through the rise of feminism) have afforded them.

    Love the blog, I truly believe this is a very important topic, thank you for providing the forum..

    Best,
    Wes

    Reply

    • In the interest of brevity, here are several bullet points in response:

      1) I’m not knocking anyone’s right to avoid marriage. I see the point. But I also see the counterpoint.

      2) Be careful excusing my position based on naivete. My extensive body of work above and beyond this one blog post expounds on that, but let’s just say I’ve had my share of negative experiences with women and the family law system. My decision making since has simply been very different than that of many others who’ve commented.

      3) I don’t doubt the validity of anyone else’s experience. But it’s a logical fallacy to report one’s own experiences as universally applicable and then dismiss my own as not applicable and/or irrelevant. Remember also that I’m not only asserting my own experience, but that of a multitude of men I’ve coached live in-field. Never once in eleven years have we encountered the kind of treatment from any woman that some of these guys are assuming happens nearly every time they attempt to interact with a woman. Simply put, the first place to look when one sees a consistent negative pattern in social interactions is in the mirror.

      4) I’ve researched MGTOW and have read much of the main website itself. It only reinforces my position that the movement (which they oddly refuse to acknowledge it is) as presented in their official publication is a reaction to the man-bashing arm of second wave feminism. To me that smacks of an “I know you are, but what am I?” argument, which plays directly into a lack of masculine power and leadership which contributes to unattractiveness to women. That’s the great irony at play here: The attitude that typically accompanies full “cold-turkey” MGTOW only drives any good, decent women further away…thereby creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      5) Bear in mind that both Emily and I do not believe that one gender is inherently good and the other bad. Our messaging is consistent toward women who come to us with an opinion that all men are the problem. Women who come to us with a mindset of, “All men are monsters…can you find me a good one to marry?” may as well plan on dying alone. All the men who respect and honor women would have to have rocks in their head to get into a committed relationship with a woman like that.

      In the end, both women AND men can be relationship-ready or not. BOTH genders can have attitude problems and otherwise exhibit the range of human vice and virtue.

      Reply

      • Wez

        Hey Scot! Just to follow up.. If I came off as attacking you, perhaps I wrote too harshly.. You’re doing a great thing by offering this forum for a problem that only seems to be growing:/

        Just a couple points to retort:

        Thank you for acknowledging my point on marriage, and I certainly can see there does exist GREAT marriages out there as well..

        I do not believe it is naïveté that’s that is causing this disconnect between you and some of these guys.. I do however fear that it may be hubris–over confidence in your method and what you, yourself have seen and experienced.

        Secondly, first interactions w women are quite often very easy.. Women, love attention(Breaking News!:)
        I don’t believe that this is the fear that these guys are expressing.. They fear 2, 5, 10, 15 years down the road.. I keep a 3 year hard cap on any relationship that start… While I miss out on the benefits of a 10, 20, 30 year commitment, I also experience a large variety of other women.. Trade offs.

        Thirdly, again.. As a scientist, I believe both yours and these Hardcore MGTOW guys experiences are real, however the sample size is simply too small to get a real gauge of how male-female interaction can be in 1st world countries (keep in mind, lesser developed nations do NOT seem to have these problem.. A point that may or may not be pertinent).. That’s why I think it’s important to not necessarily preach a particular way, but perhaps listen and help guide …while keeping your own mind open to some of these guys’ thoughts as well:)

        Lastly, remember that “cold turkey” MGTOW guys that drive good girls away are doing it on purpose.. They’ve stepped out of the game, and as far as I’m concerned (and your pupils) that should be fine by us!! BUT I do see where you’re coming from when you speak of the bitterness..and to your point: If your out of the game, stay out, don’t heckle from the sidelines

        This kind of discourse, I believe, is exactly what we need.

        Reply

        • You can call it “hubris” if you’d like. I call it consistent, positive results across the board over the course of over a decade. This is not opinion. It’s fact.

          And AGAIN…I do *not* discount the experiences of MGTOW guys. I’m not sure how to make that point more clearly. In fact, you may be angering scads of these guys by saying that first interactions with women are “often very easy”. The vast majority of men I work with–regardless of their attitude toward women–would vehemently disagree with that.

          But regardless, I will not stand idly by and let bitter guys OR shy guys to influence other men to lose hope.

          As far as sample size goes, increase the scope to include the entire planet if you will. You’ll see guys failing with women because they’re fed up with women from whatever country they come from, and at the opposite end of the spectrum you’ll see other guys who have no idea why we even waste our time on this sort of discussion because it’s not even close to relevant to them. Mostly, you’ll see both men AND women who’ve had their share of decent people as well as blackhearted people cross their path.

          The bottom line really is this: Vis-a-vis what I’ve seen about how personal responsibility impacts success with women in both the long- and short-term, what benefit do I gain by agreeing with the position of MGTOW? I’m convinced there are perfectly wonderful women out there who want to treat me right. And I’m a happy man. Why would I deny my own truth at all, let alone for the sake of being bitter?

          So then, I make no apologies for not validating the MGTOW position that women are worth giving up on. The fact that I believe we’re going to have to agree to disagree there has nothing to do with my denying the validity of anyone’s experience, but rather that I believe something can be done about it. The disagreement is over whether active leadership matters relative to passive victimhood.

          Your final point is the one I’ve been making in this thread all along. If these guys have truly washed their hands of women, why are they spending so much time and energy here discussing it? One of these guys has even researched practically every radical man-hating woman and used his research as evidence that all 3.25 billion female human beings suck. Who spends that kind of time and energy on what they’ve “given up” on? It only proves they’re still searching for answers and hope. I’m offering the answers AND the hope, regardless of how they choose to handle it.

          What if what I’m suggesting were to work, if only these guys would give it a try?

          Reply

          • Garry

            I agree with your last paragraph. From what I’ve read here MGTOW might as well be MGTOWAFW (Away From Women) because so much of the thinking seems to dwell on women.

            It seems to me that if I decided I get more enjoyment out of some other thing or things in my life than I do women and that time and thought spent with women or about women is time that I’d rather spend doing those other things, then I’m pretty sure I’d do those other things and that would be that.

            So I’m left with the belief that all those other things that MGTOW guys have in their lives and earnestly enjoy haven’t entirely filled the void they once freely admitted that they hoped a woman would fill.

            So maybe it’s seldom ‘going their own way to something more satisfying to them’and rather ‘going their own way AWAY from unsatisfying encounters with women’ And as such, it’s still about women.

            The opposite of desire isn’t disdain. It’s indifference. From the comments here I don’t see much indifference toward women from the MGTOW crowd. I certainly don’t hear ‘for me, as the person I am, the lifestyle I most enjoy doesn’t involve women. Many other guys are different’, instead it is more ‘women have failed me and other guys should quit while they’re ahead.’ I dare say some MGTOW spend more time thinking about women in general than some guys who have learned the skills to function with women do. Might be that the best way to go is one that leads to having enough skill to relate to women as people and not make a huge deal of it.

  166. Mickey

    Of course MGTOW is a reaction to the feminazi man-hate that’s all around us. If they want nothing to do with any guy, why should we just stand around and let them just s**t on us with impunity?

    Reply

    • …Again, not a universal condition that all women share. Some? Yes. All? Not even close.

      Reply

      • Mickey

        “A universal condition not all women share.” Maybe, but one shared by enough of them to make the idea that women are somehow cheering us on, well, suspect.

        Reply

  167. Mitch

    I wouldn’t waste the effort or the energy to even approach, or give attention to the Women in North America. They are just a cancer.

    Say NO to Single Mothers, Say NO to Western Women and date overseas. But don’t get married EVER or weighted down in a relationship. Boycott the Western Women and let them get knocked up by deadbeats.

    Guys who are successful, and have been through the grinder with these Women now realize our worth and don’t waste our energy with any of these Women. God Bless MGTOW! Atlas Shrugged is sure coming true now :)

    Reply

    • You know, all of you MGTOW guys are reacting to 2nd wave feminism rather than leading as masculine men. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is why you see and experience what you do. If you find any success with women overseas, it’ll be because of the language barrier not despite it.

      What drives my opinion? For starters, my tenth year anniversary yesterday of being married to my amazing supportive wife Emily who happens to carry a US passport. Our “honeymoon phase” has yet to fade.

      Meanwhile, I’ve met exactly TWO men in eleven years of doing this who have successfully met a great woman overseas and had it not yet turn into disaster. And for what it’s worth, neither of them were MGTOW.

      Reply

  168. This Is Why Many Of Us Good Men Are Still Single Today

    Well unfortunately many women these days have very Severe Mental Issues which they do need help very badly before their Condition gets any worse. And the reason why i said this is that about a few months ago which i was very Attracted to this woman that i really wanted to meet when she Cursed at me for No Reason at all when i said Hello to her which that really Shocked the hell out of me how much of a Low Life Pathetic Loser that she turned out to be. Now when you compare the women of today to the women of years ago which was quite a difference that Most of the women in those days that had much Good Manors, Good Personality, and much more Easy to meet at that time which came very Easy for our family members that were very Blessed to be born at such a better time compared to today. Today Most of the women out there have certainly Changed for the Worst of all which certainly explains why there are so many of us Good men out there that were Never married because of these type of women that are now out there unfortunately. A friend that i know had a woman Curse at him as well last year which now i really realize how many women nowadays that are complete Psychopaths which makes very Scary for many of us innocent men.

    Reply

    • Well, I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences with women. My thoughts on these specific matters you brought up have been well-documented by now in this thread, so there’s no utility in rehashing everything.

      Reply

  169. Lee

    After reading this and all the comments all night (damn that took ages :D )
    I`m forced to agree with most of the other posters, Scot they have brought up a lot of points and experiences, fears and concerns and you tend to dismiss them with “attitude and leading” and its a tiny minority BUT ITS NOT! We all have friends and family that have been taken apart by females from rejection to the family courts to the HR departments these experiences are not minority incidents.
    i wish it wasn`t and blaming people now doesn`t help, this is the way things are now and for the foreseeable future and thinking/believing things are changing for the better is just fanciful dreaming and you Scot are a dreamer.
    Its still a nightmare out and more and more people are seeing that (could be why this comment section is still going :D )
    The fact you have a wife that you love and loves you is great i`m happy for you both but how does it feel to know that at anytime she could tear your life apart again….that one person has that much power over your life, your furture……would you sign up to try again if that did happen?

    I don`t blame men or women because whats the point at the end of the day this is the world we live in now….the best you can hope for is to survive

    As for the MGTOW i guess they either want to let others know of the experiences, fears and concerns that they have had to go through and perhaps arm them against it happening to them….whether it works or not who knows people tend to have to make their own mistakes to learn the lesson (or MGTOW just love a good argument)

    Reply

    • I realize there’s a lot to read on this thread by now, but I’ve indeed expounded on my position regarding all of this previously. I realize a lot of people have a lot of pain, but in the end it’s all about taking personal control rather than wallowing in self-pity. That’s ALL about leadership and attitude.

      The truth is that I indeed have had my heart ripped out in the family law system before, and it’s a major soap box of mine. Yet, contrary to your assertion that I’m giving women power over me, I’d say the opposite. I haven’t allowed myself to get jaded by the actions of one person.

      Fast forward to today… You may see it as Emily having “power over my future”, but isn’t that mutual? What if I decided to leave? You guys seem to enjoy making it sound as if men never cause women any pain and/or families to be broken. All of us are human here, and the wrong person of either gender can leave disaster in his or her wake.

      But more importantly, I don’t feel ANYTHING with regard to her potentially “tearing my life apart again anytime”. Both of us adore each other, are level-headed, generous and optimistic. So what, then? Should I have foregone this blissful relationship with the woman of my dreams, two more wonderful kids and all the global “bucket list” adventures we’ve had together for the sake of fear of loss? Does acting on fear sound like what a man would do?

      And if I’m a “dreamer”, I’ve been sleeping peacefully with a smile on my face for eleven years now. Just last Friday was our tenth wedding anniversary and we fell in love all over again. So be it. Guilty as charged.

      Ultimately, what you’re saying sounds akin to avoiding a wonderful adventure abroad because you’re worried about the plane falling out of the sky. You can go LIVE your life boldly, or you can sit home and watch it all happen for someone else on the Internet.

      Reply

      • Lee

        Now where are were we…

        Scott this is not about self pity this is about the very real danger that a woman through the law can destroy your life, she can take it all (children/house/car/savings/pension etc and on nothing more than “shes not satisfied” to whatever insane standards she might adopt just because she might not start off this way doesn`t mean she can`t or won`t change..

        As to it being one person, its not its so many more than that we`ve all had friends and family go through the soul wrenching Family Court experience, you see this over and over again this is a major problem and still we get people saying its worth the risk…..WHY IS IT WORTH THE RISK?

        Now as to Emily having power over you, yes she does through the law she can destroy you very easily and the damage she can do to you is a hell of a lot more than you can do to her, if you leave she can take the kids the house the car the savings and your pension and ofc there’s alimony and child support (if the first wife didn`t get there first ofc) BUT if she leaves for whatever reason she still gets all that…a bit one sided don`t you think?….but there is emotional pain which i guess can`t be measured but i have had a friend that did kill himself over the loss of his wife and kids….so no its not mutual.

        Ah the “sound like what a man would do?”-Fear can save your life btw, theres bold and adventurous and there’s just plain stupid this risk can kill you and the reward doesn`t seem worth.
        and yet your marriage can still go badly you have no idea what shes really thinking, no man can know how a woman thinks i`m not even sure most women understand the thoughts of other women that used to be one of life’s great mysteries….now its just dangerous.

        “Ultimately, what you’re saying sounds akin to avoiding a wonderful adventure abroad because you’re worried about the plane falling out of the sky.” i’d be safer to go shark diving without a cage while covered in blood…. you can and many do live their lives boldly but there’s a difference between boldly and foolishly
        In short the risk and work involved is not worth the reward and it seems that your way of thinking is becoming the minority (that proof is is already there to see)

        The Fact is many women are just to much of a risk, to many of them are just to dangerous and its a shame it really is but this is the world we live in and people should be prepared to adjust accordingly (ps thanks for the reply was very interesting)

        Reply

        • Quote: “WHY IS IT WORTH THE RISK?”

          This is kind of like the Harley-Davidson ads from years ago: “If you have to ask, you wouldn’t understand.”

          Quote: “Now as to Emily having power over you, yes she does through the law she can destroy you very easily and the damage she can do to you is a hell of a lot more than you can do to her, if you leave she can take the kids the house the car the savings and your pension and ofc there’s alimony and child support (if the first wife didn`t get there first ofc) BUT if she leaves for whatever reason she still gets all that…a bit one sided don`t you think?”

          I don’t know what universe you live in, but it’s not mine.

          If you ask me, it seems like lawyers get the best deal out of the Family Law system, not ex-wives.

          Reply

          • Lee

            Ah so in other words you`re just going to fall back on “you wouldn`t understand”
            -What a cop out you mean you don`t have a clue you just think it is worth the risk.

            “I don’t know what universe you live in, but it’s not mine.”
            -thats all you have? you do better please

            “If you ask me, it seems like lawyers get the best deal out of the Family Law system, not ex-wives.”
            - on this yes lawyers do get the best and then its wives this is common knowledge, you know that or there wouldn’t be so many men staying the hell away from women and relationships

            anyway i get the feeling we will never see eye-to-eye on this so i`m just going to call it on the comments…..goodluck you may need it.

          • Lee

            ok wouldn`t let me edit the last post…

            I have family and a friend (the others didn`t make it) that have been married for a lot longer than 10 years and seem happy (mosty) and if it works its all well and good but most these days don`t work out, happy successful marriages are now in the minority this is clear and easy to see the stats are out there and people are thinking…..why bother and all you can give them is “YOU WOULDN’T UNDERSTAND” thats a hell of a cop out
            “I don’t know what universe you live in, but it’s not mine.”
            -thats all you have? some marriages end well i`ll grant that but most turn into who can hurt can hurt who the most whether it’s financial or emotional.
            “If you ask me, it seems like lawyers get the best deal out of the Family Law system, not ex-wives.”
            - on this yes lawyers do get the best and then its wives this is common knowledge, you know that or there wouldn’t be so many men staying the hell away from women and relationships.

            I was actually hoping you`d have something anything….but i guess you don`t and i can`t see us see eye-to-eye on this so we might as well just call it on the comments, best of luck.

            was what i wanted to say (sorry)

          • Lee, I’ve had the same answers over and over to that same old cynical Schadenfreude for two years and 620 comments now. In truth, it’s been as long as Emily and I have been doing this gig (11+ years).

            The part you and others don’t seem to want to hear is that we’re HAPPY, and we both plan on staying that way. So what, then? Am I supposed to divorce her and ruin all of our lives because you’re “warning” me? What do I gain by agreeing with you? Do you really expect me to do a 180 and be miserable like you?

            Clearly, “if you have to ask, you wouldn’t understand” is a valid answer. And I didn’t say that to a nebulous “them”, I said that you YOU specifically. Believe me, I have thousands of men all over the world who are living the dream with a terrific woman. I gave them plenty more to work with, mostly because they asked “how” rather than “why”.

        • Garry

          This is akin to a woman posting to other women ‘never get involved with a man. If you decide to end it, he’ll stalk you, break in and beat you to a bloody pulp. The restraining order you get won’t stop him, if you manage to get him arrested he’ll be out in a couple months and right back after you. Your life will be hell until you end up dead.’

          Reply

          • Exactly. Not gender specific at all.

          • Lee

            Ok its nothing like that Gary but i`ll just move past that and explain what i was saying

            I was highlighting the risks and asking for a good reason(s) to take the risk (in the U.S) thats all and to date i never really got an answer…
            Most young men are asking the same question and you never seem to get a good answer from anyone as to why you should risk it all

            But i get the feeling both you and scot can`t offer a good reason and i feel i`m wasting my time and yours and scots and i will try and find my answers somewhere else

          • I’ve answered you, Lee. The problem is that you’re begging your own question, which is a logical fallacy. You can’t assume that something debatable isn’t, and then expect those who disagree with you to be accountable for their lack of agreement with you. You’re simply not hearing the answers you want to hear, and are therefore dismissing them.

          • Garry

            You’re asking for good reasons to take the risk?

            Okay, I don’t think the risk is as high as you do, but yes, there certainly is a risk. My reasons for taking it . . .

            Because some of the happiest times of my life have come as the result of a woman’s presence in my life. The desire for more of that, the frustration over times when I came up short trying to achieve it, was what led me to the men’s dating community. Scot’s records will show the programs I purchased in/around 2008-2010. My life reflects the benefits of what I got from them.

            I’ve gotten great enjoyment out of the women who’ve been in my life. They’ve been a source of fun, richness, warmth. In the past month alone my gf and I had a tremendous weekend hosting a holiday season party and she’s been my wonderous companion for a couple others. She’s the person who knows me best, the person whose insight and support lifts and helps me. Being the same for her has helped me find and be my best self.

            Every relationshhip I’ve been in has taught me more about myself and aided my becoming the man I am today. Remove those experiences and I’d be a different and lessor person. Some of the experiences haven’t been great, I’ve done things and found sides of myself that I wasn’t proud of, but I learned from those mistakes.

            There has been some pain. A long ago breakup where for six months I felt like the multi-colored world I’d shared with her had become black and white with her gone. Where the going up hadn’t seemed worth the coming down. I’ve been used and taken advantage of, but I’ve learned how to stop hoping the woman would change and bail before it reached critical mass. I’ve also hurt women in my life, and the desire not to do that has also helped me understand myself better.

            I can live w/o a woman, anyone can. But I live better with one.I don’t wear rose colored glasses. I’ve made some huge mistakes with some of the women I’ve been involved with. Strained and nearly lost some friendships once when I was too desperately involved with a troubled woman and my friends saw me changing for the worse before their eyes and I rejected their warnings. The dumbest things I’ve ever done in my life were part and parcel of dysfunctional relationships. But I know now that I made those horrid choices out of a fear that those women were the best I could do and that higher quality women would forever elude me.

            Better women, women who would have eluded me until I got my crap together, have been more than worth it. I found greater happiness, a fuller life, a sense of being part of something that has given my life greater meaning. Life just works better for me. Some of what I’ve found didn’t surprise me. It came in the forms of things I knew I wanted. But some of it has.

            If someone feels largely satisfied, content, happy, etc being single, then great. If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it. But if someone isn’t satisfied with their life and wants to get out of neutral or even second gear, bringing the presence of a complimentary female into their life can do wonders.

            Do it wisely, carefully, slowly. Don’t cling desperately too it. Don’t give up yourself for it. Don’t rationalize away yellow and red flags if you see them in a specific woman. Keep in mind that she’s a person with as many strengths, weaknesses, and complexities as you yourself have. Keep in mind that she has every right to expect as much from you as you do from her.She isn’t a plaything or a nurse or your mother.But if you chose well, she will be the most fun playful presence your life will ever have, the most nourishing, supportive, caring person you’ll ever have, and if you want to be a dad, she will be the mother of your children.

          • Garry

            As an addendum to the above for anyone who hasn’t dismissed it with tl:dr

            Yes, many of the things I’ve cited can be achieved in varying degrees via friendships with other men. Our male friendships are important, and something that our culture doesn’t always support as it should. One thing the MGTOW community does promote is male friendship. Recognition of the value in that is obvious to all the guys here sharing our experiences and insights with each other.

            So yeah, all of us who have good friendships with other guys know the fun those bring, as well as the help and other benefits those bring. They have an important place in any man’s life. But just as our friendships with other guys are different from friendships we have with women. (real friendships with the latter, not the friend trapping and so on where being friends is less than what we’re really after) I can’t imagine getting the same bond and the same rewards with the guy who’ll be the best man at your wedding as you do with the woman who may in time be your bride.

            It goes well beyond the assumption that you won’t romp in the hay with you male friends. It encompasses all that comes with being part of a couple, it encompasses all that comes with the polarity of male female and as such is an entirely different dynamic from friendships with other men.

            I think most men need both. A woman, even some custom designed to order fantasy female can’t fill the role of the guys we hang with, and for me at least they can’t be everything — not even every non sexual thing — that a woman can be.

            To that end I’ve also found that one of the types of women best avoided is the woman that other women don’t like.

    • Mickey

      Lee: Excellent points. Well said. The only other point I can add to this discourse would be this: the same women who swear up and down that they are not male bashers, man haters or hostile are usually the FIRST ones who are just that.

      Reply

      • Mickey, ever think maybe they usually aren’t, until they meet a guy who leads with a terrible attitude toward women, thinking they’re all out to get him?

        Reply

        • Mickey

          One more time: If the large majority of women are that firmly convinced that guys are trash, there’s no point trying to fight uphill to prove them wrong.

          Reply

          • …And one more time in response: Plenty of us as guys find the (overwhelming) majority of women to be sweet, friendly and eager to love and be loved by men. Your perspective is far, far from universal.

            But I’ll say this, when you seek out only those with like-minded attitudes, it’s easy for y’all to think you’re the majority. It’s called “groupthink”, and that’s been happening in forums for years and years.

            Meanwhile, the men who see women differently than you do aren’t so drawn to this thread, and they’re certainly not spending any time whatsoever on #MGTOW. They’re out enjoying women instead.

        • Mickey

          Scot, I have never claimed sainthood in any of this. That said, something is grievously wrong when a guy is reduced to always defending himself just for being a guy. Thus, I absolutely refuse to break my ass trying to win the impossible favor of the allegedly “fair sex” for whom maleness is now a disability.

          Reply

          • I promise you that’s not how most women think. You’re letting a very small but vocal minority convince you they’re normal. They’re not. Complainers always get the mic, especially in the MSM.

        • Lee

          either way i think thats going to be a “chicken or the egg” discussion and i don`t think will get solved but the media doesn`t help

          Reply

    • Garry

      Lost, hurt, betrayal, and all the rest are part and parcel of human relationships. Most people think Tennyson’s ‘better to have loved and lost . . .’ was written about a failed romance. It was actually penned after the death of a friend.

      I think most of us, if we’re brutally honest with ourselves will conclude that over the course of our relationships with MOTOS we’re likely caused as much dismay and hurt as we’ve suffered. Just as most of the pain we’ve given others was unintentional or at worst unavoidable, so too is most of what we’ve experienced when we’ve been on the short end of the stick.

      Now I’m all for keeping an eye open for yellow warning flags early in relationships and bailing before getting so emotionally involved that we pay a high price in pain when the thing blows up later. But I also believe that a successful relationship requires more than just being watchful of the other person’s behavior. So long as we’re thinking ‘it’s always the other person’ we’re missing the opportunity to learn from out past and not wreck new relationships with the same well intended but hurtful behaviors we’ve done in the past.

      If it turns out that we’ve had several relationships go south because different women did the same damn thing to us, if we’re always on the losing end of some loop that keeps repeating itself in our lives and it really hasn’t been our fault, than it can be worth asking why we’re attracted to a particular female personality.

      One of the foundational concepts of men’s dating advice has long been that attraction isn’t a choice. That’s 100% true.But that truth hasn’t been fully explored. We’ve heard the teaching ‘do ___ to ignite her attraction switches’ and some of the things to do can be counter intuitive. Tease rather than compliment, etc. But what about our own attraction switches? Are the characteristics and behaviors that excite us at first meeting well aligned with what we actually need in a partner in order for a relationship to work for us? Worse, are we sometimes attracted to women who’re flat out bad for us?

      Figuring out what we really want, understanding the temptations that can lead us to people we won’t have that with, and being flat out uncompromising in our evaluation of women in the early stages of dating can go a long way in helping us avoid the mess of relationships that just don’t have the legs to be a positive part of our life over the long haul. No, there aren’t any guarantees that no matter how right she is for us now her life won’t lead her in a different path that causes the relationship to end later, but I firmly believe that with the right person the risk is shared. That the chances she’ll want to end it a year or decade from now are roughly equal to the chances that we’ll want to end it.

      The debilitating fear of hurt starts to fade if we accept that it is a shared risk. Either person may decide it just ain’t working. Either person may be the one who has to say “I’m sorry, but . . .” It’s a minefield that men and women looking to achieve something together have to navigate together. We all have baggage and we all have the capacity to hurt the person we love. Some of us even have enough crap in our heads to destroy a relationship that we very much want to keep. At some point intimacy with another person means being open and honest about our own crap. Mistakes we’ve made, lessons learned, and our efforts to be better people. It ain’t first or second date stuff, but it is fuel for conversations worth having with the woman as a relationship deepens. Initiating them is a part of leading. Can and will she be equally open and insightful about why she’s single and the role she’s played in her previous life mishaps? Run if she won’t. But listen if she will. It can help both of you defuse stuff later.

      There WILL be problems from time to time. Knowing you have the resources to work through them can free you from the dread of them.

      Reply

  170. Suzie

    Wow, this most be the longest thread of comments ever !! I have been reading on and off for hours and had to give up around June 2016. :) I have since come to a conclusion. I do think that the Internet and especially the media are the problem. Causing major gender divide. My truth is that I get freaked out by some of the comments on here, it really plays with my head but then I smack myself back into reality and ask if my actual life reflect even a drop of content of most of the articles I read online and subsequent commentators. There is no marriage there at all !! Bears no resemblance to my life at all, nor the men or women I interact with. While I know there must be some truth to some of it, I can happily say that I don’t feel threatened or afraid of men, I am not bothered by them looking at me, nor any compliments I may get from men or women since on the whole they are respectful and nice. When it comes to being approached by men, I’ve never had a negative experience and would never be rude to a guy making a genuine effort to meet me and get to know me. If the interest is mutual, great but if not, I will politely say no but thank you for being human ! I always compliment men if they make that effort because I know how daunting it can be and don’t want to put them off trying with someone else. I will say however, taking rejection graciously is a quality I respect in people because it’s respecting the other persons choice and right to say yes or no. Lots more I could say on this topic but looks like enough has been said, haha !! Gary, I don’t know how you keep your cool with some of the comments so congrats with that. I would love you to write an article on this concept of ‘Friends with Benefits’ because I was made this offer recently and it really bothered and hurt me. I said no of course, because we weren’t friends, we were clearly sexually attracted to each other so I found it insulting to be setting conditions about my potential feelings and emotions ( and his ) yet be willing to engage in such an intimate act such as sex. I also find it annoying to read how only women have emotions and men are robots. So untrue. While FWB may work for some, I think it’s a way people try to control or desensitise themselves from their emotional truth. If I find a man attractive and I want to be sexual with him, I would also like to get to know him and see where that initial attraction may go. No one knows at the beginning so why do people engage in these types of arrangements ? It’s just as ridiculous as saying you want to marry someone you find attractive at first sight ! Is anyone else confused with this ? I actually fear it might be because female sexuality is not being rightly acknowledged. I don’t appreciate being seen (my sexuality that is) as a ‘prize’ that has to worked for and ‘won over’. This is about the only time I feel dehumanised and objectified. I am a human being, just like men are and as you rightly pointed out, men are from earth, women are from earth ! We are all sexual beings who desire pleasure and connection so being respected for that would make a nice start to affecting more honest and open dialogue between us.

    Reply

    • True. I find that anyone I coach who dehumanizes the other gender for whatever selfish purpose (e.g. sex, money, power, etc.) often pretty much goes hungry.

      As for FWB situations, not everyone is up for a full-on relationship, but they’re still horny so they find someone they get along with. To each his AND her own.

      Reply

    • Garry

      I don’t see FWB as desensitizing. If anything I see it as the product of a very full awareness of the dynamic between two people. Of course FWB has become a generic term. Not unlike ‘bike’, which to one person means his prize Harley he’s ridden to 48 states and to another is a stationary thing at the gym.

      For a lot of people, FWB isn’t about setting an arbitrary ceiling on what the involvement can be coupled with a ref