What Have We Replaced The Seduction Community With?

Filed Under Men Attracting Women, Men's Issues, Pickup, Seduction

Shocked By SexWhat’s truly bizarre to me is guys who have been working on getting better with women for less than, say, five years (therefore, the vast majority) have probably never even heard of The Seduction Community.

Essentially, it’s a lot like how my sixteen year-old daughter has no idea who Sam Kinison is.

So for the sake of clarity, what was The Seduction Community?

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Well, you can trace its beginnings all the way back to the 70s, but ultimately we’re talking about “the underground society of pickup artists” that Neil Strauss talked about in his book The Game.

These guys would meet in chatrooms and newsgroups back in the Stone Age of the Internet and talk about how to meet and seduce women.

Then, if they lived in a big enough metro area, they’d form “lairs” and meet together in person.

Although most of these guys were famously all talk and little action, some inevitably rose to the top of the food chain. The best of the best became legendary in the “Community”. Many built thriving businesses from their underground fame.

It was a huge deal for years. But nobody today will argue the fact that it’s dead.

Curiously, The Seduction Community didn’t exactly die off in one dramatic, deathly blow, a la the last scene of a Shakespearean tragedy.

What’s more, it’s gone out with a whimper, not a bang (irony intended).

Most of us who are insiders in the men’s dating advice industry know that nearly everyone who was an “MPUA” (master pick-up artist) ten years ago is married with children by now. Some are quiet about it, while others have re-branded and changed their message accordingly. But either way, had they and their constituents a crystal ball back in the day, they’d have been collectively appalled.

Meanwhile, back in May one of the biggest, most legendary pickup companies was sold off, the owner claiming to have “lost his edge”. Immediately afterward, it was announced that all of their bootcamp teachers would lose their anonymous “handles” and go by their real names going forward. I brought this up in a mastermind of my peers a few days ago, and nobody had even heard about it.

For my part, I’ve never identified directly with The Seduction Community, although I (weirdly) always coexisted peacefully with it. Hell, I’m not a “get laid quick” pickup artist, I’m a “be a better man and find your dream woman” dating and relationship coach.

So for me, at least, this has all been a breath of fresh air over the past few years. I haven’t had to awkwardly correct interviewers who introduce me as a pickup artist in ages. Eight years ago that was a constant.

And come to think of it, I haven’t received a friend request on Facebook from YourNameHerePUA in…forever.


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So what killed The Seduction Community, exactly?

Well, by about 2008 every woman had already been asked “Who lies more?” so many times that she Googled it.

Social media came along, making it tough to remain social while keeping PUA antics anonymous. As a by product, online forums became dinosaurs like chatrooms and newsgroups (alt.seduction.huh?) before them.

Then the rash of “street harassment” videos brought the word “rapey” into the mainstream.

Boom…mic drop. In the year 2016, more guys than ever before realize it’s not cool to “trick” women into having sex with them. Meanwhile, even more men realize–perhaps through trial and error–that it seldom worked on women to begin with. If on the odd chance they weren’t wise to it in 2004, they certainly are now.

Now obviously, I’ve been talking about how character and virtuous masculinity attract high quality women for over a decade. Nowadays, others have caught on and joined that chorus, frankly.

But that isn’t the point of this post.

After all, weird, bad advice from the Seduction Community era still persists out there, blindly handed down from copycat to cub copywriters. (e.g. the three second rule, kino escalation, bad boy vs. nice guy, never compliment a woman, misguided “negging”, etc.)

We as men are still interested in getting better with women, and we always will be.

So there’s still dating advice. There are still books, audios, coaching programs and the like, of course.

This isn’t about the advice itself, good or bad. The real point is that there’s still seduction, just no community surrounding it.

For all its flaws, the Seduction Community gave men who were trying to get better with women a place they felt they belonged.

Despite the problematic trappings of the PUA mindset relative to respecting women, etc., that connection between dudes was really cool.

Everyone involved felt they were part of something bigger.

Nowadays, if you’re trying to get better with women, you might feel like a Lone Ranger.

That’s because since the Seduction Community died out so slowly over time, nobody ever replaced it with the next-gen version.

Sure, you’ve got the “Manosphere” and “#MGTOW”. But I’m not talking about men who’ve “gone their own way”, dismissing women in anger and frustration.

I’m wondering aloud how to rebuild a community of guys who still want to get better with women.

Don’t we all want and deserve that?

I mean, for years the attempt has been made to brainwash men into believing that our masculinity is a bad thing…yet none of the perpetrators offered a reasonable alternative.

So is it mere coincidence that the “Community” was disbanded for being a bad thing, yet nothing better was raised to replace it?

I’m interested in helping to organize such a new community. But the question on the table is what would that look like?

My gut instinct is that most men in today’s world aren’t just sick of the idea of “tricking women”, we’re also no longer self-conscious about admitting it.

How about a community of guys who are all about demonstrating that we know how to be real men of character, know how to attract women the right way and—best of all—believe that the vocal “man haters” out there are a tiny minority?

Could it be that all of the sweet, feminine, sexy women who we’re actually interested in would stand up and cheer if we formed that new community?

And imagine…you could boldly use your real name.

What do you think? Am I on to something here?

And are you in?

Or do you think I’m missing a piece or two?

I want to hear from everyone. I can’t be a one man “community”. So since you’re invited to whatever comes of this, let me know what you think.

And ladies, if you’re reading this chime in as well.


Be Good,

Scot McKay


P.S. The closest thing we’ve done around here to what I’m talking about in this post is this. Some great guys were a part of it. Maybe that could be an ongoing movement?



27 Responses to “What Have We Replaced The Seduction Community With?”

  1. Kurt

    Hi Scot

    Good article

    I think there is a number of reasons why the community is “non-existent” . The crash of 2008 played a big part for guys just did not have money to spend like they did and going out is expensive. Also the quality of many of the companies that were teaching this stuff was pretty bad.

    In addition a lot of the stuff just does not work for everyone. Yeah the “who lies more” thing is true but overall if it does work, you still have to deal with a ton of rejection and many guys have a hard time with that.


    • I think you’re absolutely correct about the downward spiral in the quality of pickup teaching. What basically happened was that guys decided since they became good at doing pickup that they should start a pickup company. Most started with extant teachings as a baseline and simply added their own twist, if even that. Then, there were also guys who were pure marketers who really didn’t care much about the “community” side of things at all.

      Not sure about the economic downturn of 2008. That’s an interesting idea.


  2. Dennis

    Hi Scot,
    We have all moved on from the 70’s especially women who have seen it all through our instant gratification, social media driven world. If everyone treated each other with respect and BIG 4, then men and women would be falling over each other for sex and relationships without the games being played. Do we need a community for this change? I don’t think we need it but, as you said in your blog, some people need to belong to a movement or ideal to fit in to society. You are ideally placed to be the guru leader of that movement! BIG 4 forever!


    • Thanks for the vote of confidence!

      Desire for community in the quest to be better with women has always been subjective, I think. Even during the height of The Seduction Community, there were guys who studied how to get better with women who weren’t necessarily into the PUA thing. I certainly fit that description. Truth be told, I didn’t even KNOW there was such thing as The Seduction Community until after I became a dating coach!


  3. Jonathan

    I do think much of the techniques taught by the PUAs were rediculous,but I will forever appreciate the way they pissed off the most pathetic and worst women the world has ever known(feminists).
    Online tribes could be started with the intent to evolve into meet-up groups to teach improvement in finances,health and fitness,how to dress like a man in any venue,how to become an auto-didact,and be good with women. I think if men belong to a strong tribe of men and become accomplished themselves,confidence and great women will follow. And God knows,there isn’t a greater gift to a man this side of heaven than a sweet,feminine woman


    • You’re right…I too suspect that Meetup.com would be a great way to build offline, real world community. Perhaps we should conceptualize the online version first, then extend it to the real world?


  4. SP

    I think there’s a bigger shift away from “dating” advice towards general “life” advice. Most of the time, guys who don’t really have their lives together and have never taken enough risks to build confidence in any number of areas–work, hobbies, developing skills, learning to navigate difficult situations etc–also tend to be bad with women.

    I know you claim to work mostly with guys who no longer have “life” problems and supposedly just need to get better with women, but I’m convinced guys who don’t have their lives in order are still really the biggest group of men who need help. And that’s where the focus is heading IMO. One particular guy you know personally with the initials M.M. is the best evidence I’ve seen of this.


    • By way of clarification, I agree with you that guys who aren’t good with women often need improvement in other areas also. There’s definitely a cause/effect there. At times I’ll mention coaching spot openings and call out men who have “everything in life but the right woman to share it all with”, but that’s because the guys doing Ten-Plus and live weekends with me tend to resonate with that.

      The generalization of “life” advice is tricky. If you broaden the scope too much, you lose the focus and it’s hard to find the right audience. It’s like the old adage, “If you try to please everybody, you please nobody.” That said, I do see brilliant evidence that advice on being a better man in general gets lots of traction. We’ve actually been doing that all along, but to this point haven’t branded X & Y Communications as such.


  5. Richard

    I would differentiate between Pickup and Seduction and I do think there are some great teachers out there teaching seduction. They do have a steady following though they are very much niche, tbh. But the Seduction teachings have evolved in my opinion. I know that’s not what the topic was about but I always wonder why Pickup and Seduction are so often lumped together. Pickup is dead, Seduction is a niche business but very much alive.


    • Oh, there’s no question that pickup and seduction are VERY different concepts. In fact, a quick Google search of “difference between pickup and seduction” pulled up a 2007 article of mine #1:


      Bear in mind that’s almost nine years old. For better or worse, it’ll be painfully obvious when reading it how far I’ve evolved as a writer.

      Thinking about your comment, I believe there are still good teachers of pickup out there as well. In fact, to this day if any book or program is released that doesn’t cover pickup, the biggest complaint will be, “Yeah, but this doesn’t teach us how to meet women.” You’ll notice that one of the new bonuses for Massage Your Date covered exactly that, for that very reason.

      The big thing is the community surrounding it has vanished.


  6. alfredo

    given the importance of the logistics involved i don’t personally think there should be such a community group labeled as “seduction” i know it’s true that some individuals requier more help than others to get what they want. but that doesn’t nesessarily mean that by following it will get what they need, let alone deserve. it’s all based on how one’s expectations are met and the use you give it for.however, i do agree that the more one is caught up inside a pattern like that the harder it is to bail free from it, given their supouse teachings and “core beliefs”.


  7. Derek

    Agree 100%


  8. Garry

    I think if you’re looking for a community with staying power it needs to one that appeals to all guys. From the dating version of the struggling Philly 76ers to the Golden State Warriors like guys who’re having ample success but come up short in the end. Some years back I discovered you and some other coaches during a period of desperation. I’d come out of a divorce and wasn’t getting anywhere trying to date again. Then for a time I thought I had turned that around with a much younger tiger of a girl who liked me a lot in many ways, but I lost her to a guy who excited her, which was something I hadn’t been able to do.So I was at a place where I knew I was lacking in some key areas, and also aware that my extreme focus on her was partly because of my lack of other options, the whole chasing rather than choosing thing.

    So I bought some of your programs and several others, read forums, figured stuff out and my life got better. I’ve met women I’ve wanted to meet, had enjoyable relationships, and felt confident in ending relationships when I didn’t like where they were going. Which was something I wasn’t able to do on my own terms before. Along the way I unsubscribed to most of the mailing lists I was on because the emphasis of the programs and related forums seemed to be on the narrow period that began with trying to meet women and ended with doing a first date that would generate a second one.

    Routines, negs, and staged displays of higher value didn’t help me with keeping a relationship on track, balancing work and life, figuring out what I really want in the relationship, the whole thing of going from me to we. To your credit a lot of your stuff helps with that. Maybe it’s because you’ve lived the whole thing of finding the woman you knew was right for you and having a strong marriage. I read all your emails, even the ones that are targeted on getting a first date, because the slant is more about being a better man vs being a more compelling trickster. You promote leading, not misleading.

    In fairness, maybe some of the companies I moved away from may have expanded their offerings, but there are some that haven’t done a new program in years. One still seems to target customers who don’t want more than one or two dates with a woman before going back to the well to get a new one. They serve that niche well, but a lot of late developing guys who initially have their minds blown at gaining admission to The Girl of the Month Club in time find themselves wanting one specific Girl For Life, which is a whole new set of challenges. Some PUA’s business models choose to exclude that market, and the forums hosted on their web sites reflect that choice.

    There will always be new guys, tired of being a virgin or not having been with a woman in a year who need a community and a place to learn how to overcome that. But as guys apply what we’ve learned and get dates, get laid, get seriously attached, hit rough spots and so on there will be new hurdles that can be shared in a community that includes other men who’ve been in the same places. Could be I was on the wrong forums back in the day, but the ones I remember were dominated by guys who however great they were at cold approach and scoring numbers, hadn’t maintained an actual relationship for more than six months in their entire lives. All they could offer was pickup. It was like taking flying lessons from people who knew how to accelerate down the runway and generate lift, but once the plane was off the ground they couldn’t navigate their way out of a used condom.


    • No doubt, the information that guys resonate with and how they choose to consume it has evolved, but the basic needs and desires are essentially the same. And the way it is all marketed changes constantly. But importantly, what WORKS with women has not really changed much at all over the years, save for how to meet (or confront?) evolving societal expectations and the like. Some teachers have evolved with the times, others haven’t. Some have simply lost their passion and moved on too, for sure.


  9. Lee

    Something I find that is very important that you said, at least to me, was that you are a coach who helps men become the better, more masculine and confident versions of themselves to build great relationships. Now for I do want to be a better man not only to meet women, but for myself and really being good for something. Now the flipside is that I am not seeking a long term reltiinship or more so I’m interested in meeting and having sex with great women, yet keeping things casual amd being fun great man while doing so.

    A lot of your advice is for guys looking to meet a woman for a solid and exciting relationship. Well, perhaps not only that, but to date more quality women with confidence and character that women are drawn too. So with that in mind there is a certain way you go about giving information. A lot of the pickup community can be for guys who are simply looking to get laid. However they don’t quite come at it from a place of masculinity, security, and frankly giving a shit about the lady on the other side.

    I find that for those who want a girlfriend and an eventual wife what you provdide is key. However being a guy who isn’t looking for that I still find the value given by you and others like you can help me meet with great women, be upfront (but overt) with my desire to have one night stands or friends with benfits in a way that she feels respected, turned on, and what have you and I keep my integrity knowing that I don’t have to use smoke and mirrors to get women who, already want lots a great sex, to have lots of great sex with me.

    I definitely think there is a place for that and I would be proud to be part of it, even if it is the section of guys who want more casual sex yet can do so in a fun, cool, attractive and respectable manner.


    • You know, there’s no reason that one can’t play the field AND be a person of character also. It’s almost as if people still slut-shame themselves a bit, therefore feeling deep down that anything other than a purely monogamous intent is somehow devoid of character to begin with. But it shouldn’t be that way. Plenty of men and women can agree wholeheartedly on other lifestyle choices, they simply need to find each other and demonstrate integrity all the while.

      Great point!


  10. FrankB

    Great points. As a participant in the first Big Four Man Challenge, I can certainly see the need for a such a community of men.

    Most mainstream dating advice still comes from an insidiously anti-masculine and/or misguided “just be yourself” point of view (the key word being “just”, which implies stagnation), which of course is worse than useless for most men who are bewildered as to why they fare so poorly with dating and sexual relationships.

    On the positive side, I’ve observed that “feminist” thought is evolving to recognize and support masculine/feminine polarity and positive masculinity. The fact is, many if not even most women are STARVED for positive masculinity in men, which has not only been under psychological assault, but also under physical assault from poor food, health care practices, and environmental toxins that have sapped men’s mojo.

    And to Lee’s point, there is a need for more positive discussion about sexual/romantic relations with integrity that are outside of the monogamous and/or possessive norms. This is by no means gender-specific, and goes right back to one of the original aims of feminism, which was respect for female sexuality, which still has a long way to go almost 2 centuries later.

    Yes, we can definitely use something in the way of a men’s community that is about positive masculinity. And in which high-quality women would WANT men to be involved.

    Keep up the great work, Scot!


  11. Garry

    I think Lee hit on something critical with his focus on integrity and being above smoke and mirrors. Even as he and I have different preferences and would thus need different bags of tricks if tricks were our thing, a community stressing positive masculinity as FrankB spoke of fits all of us.

    The whole thing of ‘just be yourself’ has been twisted and contorted to where it leads men further from ourselves, rather than closer. It no longer has anything to do with authenticity or being the men we were born to be before social conditioning had its way with us.

    Most of the male behavior that has given masculinity a bad name has been the product of wounded and weak masculinity, not healthy strong masculinity. But the derivations aren’t stressed enough in contemporary society, instead masculinity itself is treated as the culprit.

    FrankB is right that women are starved for positive masculinity. The tricks taught by PUAs are built on tapping into that and giving women fleeting yet intoxicating glimpses of it. The whole Display Higher Value stuff is illustrative of that. Men should display higher value, but not in the form of some gimmick that hints of the real thing. Better to do it authentically by BEING of high value.

    At their core, all the smoke and all the mirrors are about trying to appear as a man in the classic sense of the word. It’s as though social conditioning has robbed men of so much of our birthright that the best some coaches believe they can achieve now are steps to generate a pretense of the real thing.

    It’s permeated the rhetoric. When we hear the chorus of ‘all men are rapists’ what we’re witnessing is a failed awareness of what manhood is all about. There was a time when a true man protected the weak and obtained what he wanted in honorable ways. Disdain for women and positive masculinity don’t belong in the same sentence any more than those traits exist in the same male.


    • I couldn’t agree more that’s what has happened. Masculinity IS our birthright, and it is absolutely meant to be virtuous.

      What gets forgotten is that vice cannot exist in a vacuum. Virtue must exist in order for it to be corrupted. Therefore, when men are maligned for failing at masculinity, the virtuous side of masculinity is conveniently overlooked by those with an agenda.

      Probably my most popular talk I give at live conferences is called “Virtuous Masculinity”, and it covers this very concept. Looking forward to giving it again in just two weeks at the Elite Man Conference in Plymouth, MA.


  12. AL

    Male role models should be real – masculine and mature – men. Men with life experience who understand masculinity and feminine and who treat everyone in a win-win fashion (if they’re treated the same in kind). And who can and do apply that to everything in their life. IMO that’s what a new men’s community needs to be viable. Scott you fit that description very well!


    • I think emotional maturity is an aspect that gets trivialized quite a bit. I know plenty of 20-year-old guys who exhibit it, and plenty of 50-year-olds who do not.

      To your point about my exhibiting masculinity, here’s an interesting thought that I may have never fully expressed. You know, I never, ever have a rough time of it out there in the big world when I portray being a virtuous, masculine man. No disrespect from guys and ZERO backlash from women. I really do think what you and other guys are talking about is right on the money. Angry women are mad at BAD men, not GOOD men. Unfortunately, they may not be seeing enough virtue from men out there.

      I’ve always said if you can master the “big four” you’ll have little, if any competition for the hearts and minds of women.


  13. Chris

    As someone who has read a good amount of the PUA material and found it to be completely counter my character, I feel that this new kind of community is exactly what many men are looking for. We certainly will not find examples of authentic masculinity in popular culture. I also feel that most women out there are craving this type of man. Count me in as part of this community.


  14. J.D.

    There are two big challenges I see to the viability of any kind of “community”. The first is that the leaders/instructors/gurus who want to make a living off of it have bad incentives. A good teacher will be willing to break the bad news to his students that the journey will be a lot of hard work, and the payoff may not be as great as hoped for. But that’s not good for business; students will tend to gravitate toward those offering the easy button and exaggerated rewards.

    Secondly, the interactions among the students tend to have a toxic element to them. I’ve been on many forums (including PUA and MGTOW) and one thing that always happens is that the guys who get the most attention are not the ones who have the best advice to give. The thoughtful men give up in frustration, leaving the flamers and braggers to take over.


    • Although I see your first point, I don’t think there’s necessarily “bad news” to be broken to most men out there. There may not be a universal “easy button”, but bear in mind I’m particularly talking about a community of men that rises above the “underground” nature of the PUA community and the negativity and despair (regardless of how they spin it) of #MGTOW.


      • J.D.

        OK, let’s say such a community gets going. If you let in anyone who wants to join, that will dilute it and ultimately drag it down. On the other hand, if you have gatekeeper(s) who decide who gets in and who doesn’t, you have to hope said gatekeeper is a saint, rather than someone who uses that power for his own benefit. Good luck with that. Solve this dilemma and then maybe you’ll have something.


        • I’ve noticed that if there’s a clear purpose and the vibe to match, people tend to self-select. That makes what you’re fearing less of an issue. The problems come about when trying to please everyone.


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